Why there will be no real recovery from this recession

[MrMark]

Haha, true. Which, as sasguru pointed out, has quickly become structural and entrenched. Most of it should never have been introduced in the first place given that it simply wasn't/isn't affordable. Unfortunately the massive parasitic client state built up over the last decade has quickly become accustomed to receiving a weekly wad of beer vouchers for doing four fifths of feck all, and taking steps to shift society back in the other direction will be greeted with shrieking accusations of "heartlessness" and "callousness".

As I mentioned in another thread, I really doubt that the public has the stomach for cuts on the scale of what's required, but I hope I'm proven wrong.

Other countries like Germany or Sweden have far greater social welfare provision.
It's not that people became accustomed to doing "four fifths of feck all" but that their employment opportunities were taken away from them. The local factory or mine was closed down, the high street Pret a Manger or Starbucks prefers to employ young talented Poles or Italians, and even in our industry the work is either outsourced or given to Bobs brought on shore. Who's to blame for this state of affairs is another matter - Bad management? Unions striking? Poor government? Globalisation forces?

[doodab]

Spot on. The West has grown fat, lazy, decadent, and complacent. Emerging economies are lean, hungry, and motivated.

We used to call that a famine and send them food. Now we are jealous.

[sunnysan]

Our children will find it a very difficult world and will probably have to go abroad to find work as the multinationals move their centre of ops to Asia.
With all this in mind those of us with children should bring them up as globalised, multi-lingual citizens of the world. It is their only chance.

Have to go abroad for work.... how funny.

My great great great grandfather emigrated from EE to England to find owrk, a better life and freedom from oppression.

My grandfather left the 19th centruy slums of East London on a ship to SA, to find work, a better life and freedom from poverty.

I left South Africa to the UK to find work, a better life, to earn a strong currency.

I left UK to Eurozone to have a better life, and to improve my command of European languages

At least I didnt have to stow away on a ship like my grand dad but the principle is the same.

Nothing has changed its just happening faster

[GreenLabel]

Other countries like Germany or Sweden have far greater social welfare provision.
It's not that people became accustomed to doing "four fifths of feck all" but that their employment opportunities were taken away from them. The local factory or mine was closed down, the high street Pret a Manger or Starbucks prefers to employ young talented Poles or Italians, and even in our industry the work is either outsourced or given to Bobs brought on shore. Who's to blame for this state of affairs is another matter - Bad management? Unions striking? Poor government? Globalisation forces?

All good points, though I'd also add that a large proportion of the employment opportunities that were taken away were never commercially viable in the first place, having been artificially propped up by government subsidies and/or public ownership.

Your thoughts?

[AtW]

The root of all this evil is that WTO started including all countries rather than only comparable in terms of living standards, laws etc - when you have got China that can sell very cheap goods because they don't have pension system, poor health protection of workers etc, then it will just kill industry in the West which simply can't compete.

Everything else just follows from it - EU, USA, Canada, Japan + couple more countries should have pulled out WTO and create it's own free trade block with high tariffs on any other country wishing to sell their stuff there, this way trade flows will be between those countries with comparable living standards, rather than outflows to countries where human life isn't worth much.

[sasguru]

All good points, though I'd also add that a large proportion of the employment opportunities that were taken away were never commercially viable in the first place, having been artificially propped up by government subsidies and/or public ownership.

Your thoughts?

The bottom line: History will judge that without an Empire to exploit Britain has proven unable to pay its own way. The Germans who never had (much of) an empire had to learn to stand on their own two feet.

[sasguru]

and create it's own free trade block with high tariffs on any other country wishing to sell their stuff there, .

Yes a bit like the Soviet Union. You really are a moron of the first water, aren't you?

[HairyArsedBloke]

The root of all this evil is that WTO started including all countries rather than only comparable in terms of living standards, laws etc - when you have got China that can sell very cheap goods because they don't have pension system, poor health protection of workers etc, then it will just kill industry in the West which simply can't compete.

Everything else just follows from it - EU, USA, Canada, Japan + couple more countries should have pulled out WTO and create it's own free trade block with high tariffs on any other country wishing to sell their stuff there, this way trade flows will be between those countries with comparable living standards, rather than outflows to countries where human life isn't worth much.

You are partially right in identifying some of the issues, but your prescription is totally wrong.

[AtW]

Yes a bit like the Soviet Union. You really are a moron of the first water, aren't you?

A bit like NAFTA: North American Free Trade Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not sure Mexico really should play part in it though - their life standards are much lower and having them in a free trade block would undermine the whole idea that there should be level playing field in competition.

Expansion of WTO was a massive mistake - probably fatal as all it achieves is shifting of living standards of western countries to the level of 3rd world.

[AtW]

You are partially right in identifying some of the issues, but your prescription is totally wrong.

It's the key issue - 3rd world takes advantage of cheap labour free of pensions, health safety standards, child labour etc so much as even top brands use it because price differential is just too high, and why should it be lower if they don't give a tulip about people who work?

Fundamentally if people in the west cant find jobs then they are a burden on the state, which has to increase taxes etc - all that is because a lot of jobs simply disappeared and won't appear here unless those jobs are coming back.

Ironically given that in the final price of product marketing, transportation etc account for majority of the cost, making them in the west would not increase prices that much - so defensive tarrifs on same goods made outside of such free tradeblock won't need to be high, add some taxation to discourage western companies to invest outwards of the block and the job is done.

Take NATO for example - the key there is that countries that take part in that block are democratic, there is more to it than just defensive pact - only similiar countries can be in that block, otherwise it makes no sense.

Unfortunately there is zero chance of problem being fixed decisively anytime soon if ever - not with Cameron going to India to beg right after he got new job.