Romanian Gypsies

[darmstadt]

Quite agree with some of Mich's arguments but we have a problem with them here.

You'll see them spread around town sitting down with a plastic coffee cup in the hand asking for money. This put pressure on the council who have now cut down on 'panhandlers' some of whom have been around the town for ages and actually do something to earn the money, i.e. selling the homeless newspaper (which at one point was being taken over by the non-homeless Gypsy people,) the street musicians and artists, etc.

I remember sitting in cafes in Frankfurt and you would see a group of women walking up and down the streets with a bit of paper stating that they would like to tell your fortune. You would then see them all meet up after scragging gullible folks and all get into a convoy of Mich style big black limousines.

[xoggoth]

look at their contribution to our society, through the lens of what we regard as useful

What does that mean exactly? Let's not get metaphysical. Being able to support oneself and family without depending on strangers would probably be a definition of useful in most societies. Is there some other strange definition we should be adopting?

It is a valid point about only seeing the scrotes but we are talking about the group as a whole, as by and large implied. Taking them as a whole, are they more or less likely than the UK average to make a net contribution to the UK economy and society? If you have any information that most are in gainful employment and observing all our laws please share it as we are clearly being misinformed by the press.

As to the rest I have no idea; I used the word "are" and was referrring to the current wave into Western EU countries since accession as this appeared to be what this thread is about, not to Romany Gypsies in the UK throughout the ages. It is probably true that previous generations of Romanies used to be very useful in that farmers often relied on them for crop picking etc but that no longer applies for all the obvious reasons and is not a justification for taking in huge numbers from Eastern Europe today unless they meet the EU criteria of being self supporting.

[Boudica]

jesus christ on a bike

I leave this thread this morning with funny pictures of paddington and gentle jokes and come back to nine pages of fairly awful stuff and a banning...

it does make me wonder though, how many of these posters would be brave enough to say it in person in public, shouldn't that be the measure for everyone?

[realityhack]

Is there some other strange definition we should be adopting?

Nope - that's exactly what I meant: If you generalise, by and large, Romanies aren't what we would regard as useful to society. Your definition of that is a narrow but perfectly valid one.

Taking them as a whole, are they more or less likely than the UK average to make a net contribution to the UK economy and society? If you have any information that most are in gainful employment and observing all our laws please share it as we are clearly being misinformed by the press.

As a group, clearly, they are less likely. I would guess a large proportion are not contributing, by being out of work (or working cash-in-hand), as they're effectively out of the system.
I'd be surprised if anyone here could confirm or deny that most Romas are observing all our laws. Except, perhaps, laws pertaining to tax, squatting and the like.

As to the rest I have no idea; I used the word "are" and was referring to the current wave into Western EU countries since accession as this appeared to be what this thread is about, not to Romany Gypsies in the UK throughout the ages.

I'm not sure it's sensible to discuss 'this current wave' of Romas as distinct to and separate from their culture, and history of many migrations then and now. I'm sure that, in a time when common land was, er, common - and employment laws allowed them to make a meagre living, they were tolerated to some extent. I'm as sure that not all Romas are 'subhuman', or thieves, as some here have stated... my point was really a note of caution around generalisation.

[OwlHoot]

They can go and be human somewhere else.

back in India, where they belong.

From the usually reliable Wikipedia, in this article :

According to the Shahnameh of Ferdowsi (11th century CE), the 5th century Sassanian king Bahram V requested Indian king Shangol to select 12,000 "Gypsies", or Indian musicians, and introduced them to Persia. These Gypsies are believed to be the ancestors of the Persian Gypsies. They propagated Indian music and dancing in Persia, and may have travelled further west to Europe in the next four to five hundred years. It is possible that these "Gypsies" are the ancestors of the modern Roma people in Europe.

[xoggoth]

It is actually hard to find out any specifics about the Roma in Eastern Europe, I don't mean all the hot air, I mean actual statistics on crime, employment, health etc.

It does seem though that we are not mainly talking about a racial group excluded from mainstream society wholly against their will but a distinct culture that stays separate by choice. For example, one item I found mentions the way the Roma are marginalised in education in Slovakia from an early age, with most being sent to separate schools. It goes on to say this discrimination starts at an early age because the children do not speak Slovakian.

There are some very fundamental problems here. How can you integrate a group that rejects integration? How can an overcrowded property owning society with locally collected taxes accomodate a nomadic people? How does a centralised tax system cater for casual work by people of no fixed address? It is very difficult to see how their requirements can be met without separate laws or a lot of concessions that are not available to the rest of us. This has been a problem for a very long time and I can't see it being solved for a very long time to come no matter how much money the EU throws at it.

Amnesty International's work on Roma rights | Right to Education

[Incognito]

They can go and be human somewhere else.

How can you say something like that and then harp on about the perceived persecution the Irish community received when they moved to Scotland?

The answer isn't rounding them up and carting them off, it's actually trying to do something with them. Move them into sheltered housing away from the cities, educate the children, show them there is something more out there to aspire to other than selling themselves or stealing from others.

You treat people as if they are sub-human and invariably they will act sub-human.

[TestMangler]

A lecture about sub-human behaviour coming from a HUN !

Irony at its finest.........

[Incognito]

A lecture about sub-human behaviour coming from a HUN !

Irony at its finest.........

Hmmm and I wonder whose sockpuppet you are then.

[sasguru]

back in India, where they belong.

From the usually reliable Wikipedia, in this article :

So you can send someone "back" when they emigrated in the 11th century CE?
You really are a cretin of the first order.
By that reasoning why not send all the useless Vikings, Norsemen, Saxons and other who claim the dole up North sitting in their council houses watching plasma TVs.



God just when you think CUK has plumbed the depths of idiocy you get another contender for the really hotly contested title of Chief Village Idiot.