All's fair in love and war

**AtW** · 3 February 2006, 22:19

Originally posted by DodgyAgent

we after all manage to get by without knowing the difference between an operating syatem and a programming language.

Did it occur to you that you owe this to programmers, not recruitment agents?

**scotspine** · 3 February 2006, 22:40

"If you lack the personality to find your own work" - steady on dodgy. i'm your star pupil if you remember?

**xoggoth** · 3 February 2006, 23:00

I've tried very hard to cultivate the sort of personality that should gaurantee me never getting a contract, and have done bugger all to look for one for years. I want to swan around at home and live off the wife's money. Trouble is, despite my best endevours, bloody agencies keep coming up with them.

**mcquiggd** · 3 February 2006, 23:46

"If you lack the personality to find your own work, then dont get al bitter and twisted just because us agents have the ability to communicate with other humans."

Just remember, its usually in spite of agents we obtain contracts, not because of them.... we have all had to deal with the morons who need to have the job spec explained to them....

Once we actually get to meet the client, having passed the arbitrary keyword search on our CVs, which most agents dont even understand, then its up to us. We are the people who actually land the job. You simply exclude people based on your own interestes - margin etc.

And then, having run a pre-built search function (ironically written for you by ... developers!)... you sit back and whinge that your 'talents' are not appreciated, and that contractors are just money grabbing idiots...

Well, we spend 7-8+ hours a day working directly with the clients.... how many hours a day do you spend, in order to justify your income, 'building a relationship' with the client...?

Once weve actually met the client, most line managers would love to employ us direct and cut out the pimps. Its only because HR departments are so incompetent that you exist in the first place.

You are nothing. You live off the talent of others.

**DodgyAgent** · 4 February 2006, 08:15

Originally posted by mcquiggd

"If you lack the personality to find your own work, then dont get al bitter and twisted just because us agents have the ability to communicate with other humans."

Just remember, its usually in spite of agents we obtain contracts, not because of them.... we have all had to deal with the morons who need to have the job spec explained to them....

Once we actually get to meet the client, having passed the arbitrary keyword search on our CVs, which most agents dont even understand, then its up to us. We are the people who actually land the job. You simply exclude people based on your own interestes - margin etc.

And then, having run a pre-built search function (ironically written for you by ... developers!)... you sit back and whinge that your 'talents' are not appreciated, and that contractors are just money grabbing idiots...

Well, we spend 7-8+ hours a day working directly with the clients.... how many hours a day do you spend, in order to justify your income, 'building a relationship' with the client...?

Once weve actually met the client, most line managers would love to employ us direct and cut out the pimps. Its only because HR departments are so incompetent that you exist in the first place.

You are nothing. You live off the talent of others.

I am going to back track on this. When I said contractors dont have "the" personality I did not mean that they dont have "A" personality.

**Fungus** · 4 February 2006, 09:59

Originally posted by DodgyAgent

There is a fair amount of contractor whinging beginning to show its head on this board again, despite my efforts to stamp it out. Show me an agent trying to pull a fast one to persuade a contractor to lower their rate at the last minute and I will show you ten contracy=tors (cos they outnumber the agencies) who will up their rate as soon as they hear that they have been offered.

The moral is dont get all bitter and twisted, and for mailman (stick to your own poxy little appendix of a country) et al my message is:
If you lack the personality to find your own work, then dont get al bitter and twisted just because us agents have the ability to communicate with other humans. Live with it, we after all manage to get by without knowing the difference between an operating syatem and a programming language.

I largely agree with this. If you don't have the nouse to find a job without an agent, you deserve to be screwed.

But it's nothing to do with personality. All you do is send the CV direct to the company. Most companies in my field don't mind. Or make contacts in other companies i.e. network.

Does golf help? Waste of a good walk if you ask me.

But, in my experience many (most?) agents are useless twits. My project manager recently asked me about someone whose CV he had received. Well, he is a friend, and I said he was a good engineer (he is). But on the CV it said he had taken 2 career breaks with working abroad in between and my boss did not like that. He looked like a loafer Well the next day I got to see the original CV. No mention of career breaks. But there was one break due to death of father in Scotland, followed by working abroad (TEFL) due to inability to find IT work here, and one break due to death of mother in Scotland. I happen to know the agent, and he is a useless twit.

Fungus

**privateeye** · 4 February 2006, 12:05

Originally posted by DodgyAgent

There is a fair amount of contractor whinging beginning to show its head on this board again, despite my efforts to stamp it out. Show me an agent trying to pull a fast one to persuade a contractor to lower their rate at the last minute and I will show you ten contracy=tors (cos they outnumber the agencies) who will up their rate as soon as they hear that they have been offered.

The moral is dont get all bitter and twisted, and for mailman (stick to your own poxy little appendix of a country) et al my message is:
If you lack the personality to find your own work, then dont get al bitter and twisted just because us agents have the ability to communicate with other humans. Live with it, we after all manage to get by without knowing the difference between an operating syatem and a programming language.

I agree with your statement that there are probably more contractors trying to pull fast ones - because contractors outnumber agents. There is a difference however, in that an agent due to the amount of contractors can simply move to another contractor for the position if a contractor is trying to pull a fast one. A contractor however when he deals with an agent pulling a fast one doesn't have the choice of simply moving on to another agent for the same contract on offer. It gives the rogue agents the best hand all the time.

The problem we have is that decent agents and this is probably the majority are getting tarred with the same brush as the rogue agents and the decent agents are taking exception to this. It is understandable why you can take exception to this but sometimes understanding that a lot of contractors have been badly treated is required from the decent agents. We have to be rather defensive when going for new contracts so we don't get caught out again.

I really don't think enough is being done by the decent agents to seperate themselves from rogues gallery. Bodies such as ATSCO have been set up with a Code of Practice - but it is not enforced. Someone needs to be kicked out or publicly rebuked for breaking the code etc. Instead almost anyone it, appears, is allowed to join.

Once a proper complaints procedure is put in place and enforced there will better working relationships between agent and client. I have no problem with the clients choice to use agents, I see it as a shame someone takes a cut from what I am earning but at the sametime can't be bothered to set up my own sales operation so in short I've chose the agent route. I don't resent it unless I know that agent is being rather excessive with commission etc - I just simply do not sign in that case as thats my business right.

Maybe you if you belong to one of the bodies such as ATSCO you could push for better enforcement of these Codes of Practice. It would help us all in the end.

**DodgyAgent** · 4 February 2006, 14:30

Originally posted by privateeye

I agree with your statement that there are probably more contractors trying to pull fast ones - because contractors outnumber agents. There is a difference however, in that an agent due to the amount of contractors can simply move to another contractor for the position if a contractor is trying to pull a fast one. A contractor however when he deals with an agent pulling a fast one doesn't have the choice of simply moving on to another agent for the same contract on offer. It gives the rogue agents the best hand all the time.

The problem we have is that decent agents and this is probably the majority are getting tarred with the same brush as the rogue agents and the decent agents are taking exception to this. It is understandable why you can take exception to this but sometimes understanding that a lot of contractors have been badly treated is required from the decent agents. We have to be rather defensive when going for new contracts so we don't get caught out again.

I really don't think enough is being done by the decent agents to seperate themselves from rogues gallery. Bodies such as ATSCO have been set up with a Code of Practice - but it is not enforced. Someone needs to be kicked out or publicly rebuked for breaking the code etc. Instead almost anyone it, appears, is allowed to join.

Once a proper complaints procedure is put in place and enforced there will better working relationships between agent and client. I have no problem with the clients choice to use agents, I see it as a shame someone takes a cut from what I am earning but at the sametime can't be bothered to set up my own sales operation so in short I've chose the agent route. I don't resent it unless I know that agent is being rather excessive with commission etc - I just simply do not sign in that case as thats my business right.

Maybe you if you belong to one of the bodies such as ATSCO you could push for better enforcement of these Codes of Practice. It would help us all in the end.

I think you guys overestimate the power that we agents have. Once the contractor has the offer he is all powerful. Whilst agents may say that they can find another one easily, so there are other agencies submitting their candidates. If you will pardon the expression: a contractor in hand is worth two in the bush

As far as Atsco are concerned they rely upon the £5000 fee that agencies pay to join them, so they are hardly likely to kick their own members out.

**privateeye** · 4 February 2006, 15:16

Originally posted by DodgyAgent

As far as Atsco are concerned they rely upon the £5000 fee that agencies pay to join them, so they are hardly likely to kick their own members out.

Thats the big problem the very people who claim to be operating a code of practice are ineffective because they rely on money provided by those who ruin it for all of us and therefore held to ransom. The way things stand a member of Atsco has no advantage to gaining extra business from contractors than a non-member - the 5000 fee is wasted. The codes of practice are meaningless unless enforced. If Atsco really showed it meant what it stands for you may find contractors actually searching for Atsco agents when they look for work.

All's fair in love and war