In denial

[northernladuk]

Having read this thread, I think his description of you as an idiot was factual, rather than an insult.

HTH.

LOL and I have to agree. Doobab has been putting a reasoned argument up about any party doing as badly in that position (to a greater or lesser degree) and has been attempting to argue against Mango's singleminded witch hunt against a party he obviously has an issue with.

Mango forgets that this type of witch hunt happens everytime a party leaves power after a long stint whether it is Tories or Labour. It happens, it is the way of politics. It obviously doesn't matter which party is in power they will incur the wrath of the hunt. Maybe it isn't actually one particular party that is the problem, it just happens in that situation. Deep breath in and just let the history of politics roll on.

[Gibbon]

Of complete opposite mind, 5 years is to short, double would be better.

The number two problem* with democracy is the frequent election cycles. Basically elected governments get about a year to 2 years tops to plan and enact any good but painful long term planning, after that it’s all about the next election. And even if they do major work in those first 2 years in most cases the real results, good or bad, are not seen until well after the next election

Quote by a unnamed euro MP pretty much sums up whole problem, “we know what needs to be done and how to do, just not how to get re-elected if we do it”

*The number one problem is a stupid electorate

Indeed, this was one of the main arguments the Spartans used against the Athenian democracy in the Pelopenesian wars. For anyone who thinks atrocties are only carried out by tryants etc then behold the fate of Melos and the Athenian vote to kill all males capable of carrying arms.

[northernladuk]

Indeed, this was one of the main arguments the Spartans used against the Athenian democracy in the Pelopenesian wars. For anyone who thinks atrocties are only carried out by tryants etc then behold the fate of Melos and the Athenian vote to kill all males capable of carrying arms.

Whooaaa. This looks impressive but is far too heavy for my tiny brain to comprehend late on a Monday. Will try read and digest tomorrow lol.

[doodab]

Whooaaa. This looks impressive but is far too heavy for my tiny brain to comprehend late on a Monday. Will try read and digest tomorrow lol.

They killed all the adult males and sold the women and children into slavery. What we now call "genocide" or "barbarism" was once considered fairly normal.

[Gibbon]

They killed all the adult males and sold the women and children into slavery. What we now call "genocide" or "barbarism" was once considered fairly normal.

Actually this case wasn't the norm, as Melos was an independent island and not a rebel one. Also the city surrendered and so would expect to be taken into slavery but not have all it's menfolk butchered. Aristophone alludes to it in a play about the sack of Troy (can't remember the name) and Thucydides later castigates his fellow Athenians for this atrocity.

[doodab]

Actually this case wasn't the norm, as Melos was an independent island and not a rebel one. Also the city surrendered and so would expect to be taken into slavery but not have all it's menfolk butchered. Aristophone alludes to it in a play about the sack of Troy (can't remember the name) and Thucydides later castigates his fellow Athenians for this atrocity.

Didn't the sack of Troy involve killing the entire population?

[Gibbon]

Didn't the sack of Troy involve killing the entire population?

From what I remember yes. But Troy didn't surrrender and so this was 'legitimate' and also they weren't fellow Greeks.

[doodab]

From what I remember yes. But Troy didn't surrrender and so this was 'legitimate' and also they weren't fellow Greeks.

Well, it's good that they had rules about it. That's what makes them civilised I suppose.

I might have to get some books on all this ancient history stuff. It's quite interesting.

[Gibbon]

Well, it's good that they had rules about it. That's what makes them civilised I suppose.

I might have to get some books on all this ancient history stuff. It's quite interesting.

I find it fascinating. A good starting point would be Tom Hollands 'Persian Fire' and 'Rubicon'. If you're still interested after this then dive in to the ancient sources.

Herodotus, Thucydides and Xenophon for intro to Greece.
Livy, Tacitus, Polybius and Plutarch for Rome.

IMHO

HTH