Ladies' Wimbledon Final

[Drewster]

So let me sum up Drewster. You're saying that men are fitter, stronger, more athletic, more intelligent, have better pain barriers and make better drivers.

Ok anything else you want to add?

<Deep breath> I will not be provoked by deliberate misrepresentation

the fittest men are fitter than the fittest women
the strongest men are stronger than the strongest women
the most athletic men are more athletic than the most athletic women
So generally the average man is "better" at things that require those attributes....
I men are BETTER than women at objective based sports (see caveats above)

With you as an example I wouldn't dream of saying men are more intelligent.....

It is an entirely different argument but the pain one is quite interesting:
MrsD can't pick up a hot saucepan from the hob without a glove/teatowel..... because it hurts!
I can pick up the same saucepan with my bare hand..... but it doesn't hurt!
Does that mean I can stand more pain?? It doesn't burn me - so I am not bearing pain at all!

If something hurts me - I tend to stop doing it... is that cos I can't bear pain???

Driving - "Better" driving is a non-objective thing..... Lewis Hamilton is "better" than any woman at driving a F1 car ie winning races.....
but I have no idea how to measure "best" in driving down the road....

[Drewster]

You are the same Drewster who posted these arguments that I'm responding to?

I accept that when we talk about most sports you are correct, but you made a sweeping statement which was inaccurate.

Snooker and darts are games btw.

1) Well I think I am.....
2) No your example was not a direct comparison (ie able to be objectively measured) of a male vs female sport ie The Horse has such a huge impact on the success or other wise of Show jumpers and eventers (you notice I didn't throw back Horse racing as a counter argument as (although all the best jockeys are men) the comparison is equally invalid)
3) I agree... but men are better than women at most skill based games as well....

[Zippy]

1) Well I think I am.....
2) No your example was not a direct comparison (ie able to be objectively measured) of a male vs female sport ie The Horse has such a huge impact on the success or other wise of Show jumpers and eventers (you notice I didn't throw back Horse racing as a counter argument as (although all the best jockeys are men) the comparison is equally invalid)
3) I agree... but men are better than women at most skill based games as well....

You can objectively measure the sports I mentioned as it's a fault based system. You hit/miss a fence or you don't. I didn't mention dressage as the judging is - at least in part - subjective. Are you suggesting that women are given better horses to ride in eventing and showjumping to compensate?

With respect to horse racing the most successful jockeys are men. I don't really know why this is as - although men are stronger - the horse is 10x stronger than any human. We'll need to wait until a few females get proper contracts. I suspect it's a perception issue on the part of trainers and owners (although they are happy for women to ride their 1m$ + assets on the gallops??) but we'll have to leave that one for now.
In short I know that you are wrong.

[Drewster]

You can objectively measure the sports I mentioned as it's a fault based system. You hit/miss a fence or you don't. I didn't mention dressage as the judging is - at least in part - subjective. Are you suggesting that women are given better horses to ride in eventing and showjumping to compensate?

With respect to horse racing the most successful jockeys are men. I don't really know why this is as - although men are stronger - the horse is 10x stronger than any human. We'll need to wait until a few females get proper contracts. I suspect it's a perception issue on the part of trainers and owners (although they are happy for women to ride their 1m$ + assets on the gallops??) but we'll have to leave that one for now.
In short I know that you are wrong.

I know you can objectively measure the result....... and I made no mention of women getting "better" horses etc...
The point (which I have stated repeatedly) about equine sports such as Showjumping and Eventing (and also Racing) is that the success or otherwise of the horse/rider combination is to a very large extent a factor of the horses athletic prowess - whatever the rider adds to the mix is not an objectively measurable factor.
The competition is to a very large extent a competition between the horses (I know the horses wouldn't be doing the event without the rider).
The skill etc of the rider (while considerable) is not an objectively measurable sport in its own right.

So - in the case of Showjumping and Eventing - we are in agreement that (as far as can be measured) there is no difference between men and women as riders (not that they don't have different assets based on their sex but that neither is demonstrably better) the 10x strength factor of the horse is the decider.

We also agree that men "appear" to be better race jockeys...but that is slewed by many things including bias......

You appear to accept my argument (that men are better than women at sport) but can't actually bring yourself to admit it - so you persist with a spurious argument about horses.....

Oh well - I leave you too it for a while cos I am off to dinner.....

See you later...

[d000hg]

Driving (F1 at least) is also quite physical, requiring stength and stamina.

[Zippy]

I know you can objectively measure the result....... and I made no mention of women getting "better" horses etc...
The point (which I have stated repeatedly) about equine sports such as Showjumping and Eventing (and also Racing) is that the success or otherwise of the horse/rider combination is to a very large extent a factor of the horses athletic prowess - whatever the rider adds to the mix is not an objectively measurable factor.
The competition is to a very large extent a competition between the horses (I know the horses wouldn't be doing the event without the rider).
The skill etc of the rider (while considerable) is not an objectively measurable sport in its own right.

So - in the case of Showjumping and Eventing - we are in agreement that (as far as can be measured) there is no difference between men and women as riders (not that they don't have different assets based on their sex but that neither is demonstrably better) the 10x strength factor of the horse is the decider.

We also agree that men "appear" to be better race jockeys...but that is slewed by many things including bias......

You appear to accept my argument (that men are better than women at sport) but can't actually bring yourself to admit it - so you persist with a spurious argument about horses.....

Oh well - I leave you too it for a while cos I am off to dinner.....

See you later...

I "appear" to accept your argument but I "can't bring myself" to admit it? Did you actually read any of my posts?
I pointed out a flaw in your sweeping statement (quoted previously) and referring to women and men in horse sports does not make it a "spurious argument about horses".
The strength of the horse is not the decider. I mentoned it to illustrate the fact that if you let the relationship descend into a punch-up you willl lose - be you male or female. I didn't elaborate on that point because I felt it was obvious. There are many factors other than (human or equine) strength at work.

To summarise - don't be so feckin daft!

[Drewster]

I "appear" to accept your argument but I "can't bring myself" to admit it? Did you actually read any of my posts?
I pointed out a flaw in your sweeping statement (quoted previously) and referring to women and men in horse sports does not make it a "spurious argument about horses".

Errrr yes.....

With every other sport I can think of strength is a major factor, which was your original argument I think? I just provided a contrary example.

I accept that when we talk about most sports you are correct, but you made a sweeping statement which was inaccurate.

Snooker and darts are games btw.

These seem to indicate that you agree with my argument...... particularly as I never challenged your interpretation.

Yet still you persist with gumph about horses......

You did (almost) what I expected.... You put forward an answer to a different argument!

And reading:

The strength of the horse is not the decider. I mentoned it to illustrate the fact that if you let the relationship descend into a punch-up you willl lose - be you male or female. I didn't elaborate on that point because I felt it was obvious. There are many factors other than (human or equine) strength at work.

I am not sure if we are having two different arguments:
I am arguing that men are better at "sports" (with all the caveats about meaning actual human vs human competition with objective measures) - which you appear to accept.

You (might) be arguing that the skill/temprement/empathy/x-factor of the rider has a very large contribution towards being a "good" rider (a larger contribution than the riders physical strength or indeed their gender).... if that is the case i am happy to agree with you.

I can only assume you weren't suggesting that there was any likely hood of us descending into a punch-up.......
or that were that the case that I would lose.....

a) The likely hood of you (woman) being able to beat me (man) in a genuine physical fight is very low (not vanishingly so but pretty unlikely)
I am 6ft tall and weigh 16 1/2 stone so you would need some pretty highend fighting skills and/or to be physically a very unusual woman (obviously you might be a blackbelt in karate which would help your cause)
b) The likely hood of me or I expect/hope you) having any desire to actually fight with anyone (man or woman) over a virtual conversation is non-existant.

To summarise - don't be so feckin daft!

Of course I'm fecking daft... I post here don't I......

[doodab]

I can think of one sport where the women beat the men hands down.

Beach Volleyball

[Drewster]

I can think of one sport where the women beat the men hands down.

Beach Volleyball

I never said that there weren't some aspects of womens sport that were better than mens.....
but I think my preference for nubile young ladies wearing minimal clothing prancing about in the sand over hairy sweaty ugly blokes is slightly subjective...... Zippy might love the latter!

[Drewster]

Ok - me neither!!!