Newbie questions

**wc2** · 14 January 2006, 15:02

Never had trouble finding a contract I'm in my 30's - started contracting in my early 20's

There are 2 ways of looking at this.

You are past it.
You can bring a wealth of knowledge to a project.

It's all about how you sell yourself - If I were you I would not take a contract unless it increased your wages 4 fold.

Milan has been contracting since he was 12 he's now 14 and still going strong.

**stackpole** · 14 January 2006, 15:18

Originally posted by KentPhilip

1. I am 36 and in my current permanent role I am one of the oldest people there. I have heard, and suspect, that there is age discrimination and as I get older this might get worse. Is age discrimination in contracting worse or not as bad as in permie work?

From what I've seen, age descrimination is not as bad for contractors.

2. If you spend some time contracting and decide to go back into permie work, is it harder to get a permie job as they might be worried that you'll leave again?

Yes. Some employers actually specify "no ex-contractors".

3. If you are a contractor you don't get any "career development". Does this cause contractors to find work boring and demoralising more so than permie workers generally?

No, it is not as bad for contractors, because you know it won't be long before you are out of there and doing something else.

4. Do contractors ever find themselves ostracised by permies because they are outsiders? Does this cause contractors to feel lonely (in the same way that people who work from home sometimes feel lonely - lack of banter with work colleagues).

It happens, but not that often. It has never happened to me.

5. My skills - what sort of rate might I get (in London). I make £47K permie in London, which is high because it is a niche system only used by 3 companies.

Don't know.

6. I don't think I'm the best at my job - only a 6 out of 10 I think. Although I can do the work I don't remember things too well (probably the booze :-) and have to refer to notes. Hence I'm seen as a specialist rather than someone who can see the big picture. Are the standards of work required of contractors generally the same, higher, or lower than the equivalent permie position. (I think I am being squeezed out of work due to politics and my less-than-perfect work ability, and I don't want to make things worse for me).

Some crap contractors make a good living out of it. I know, I've met them.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with referring to notes.

7. Is it harder to gain new skills when contracting, as the client only wants you to do a job with the skills you already have, and not give you experience with new areas?

In most contracts there is a new skill to learn, whether it is a technical skill or a business one. There are many long-term contractors about and, apart from those working on legacy systems written in COBOL or similar, few are still doing what they were doing ten or more years ago.

8. (the killer) Career counselling/books. Can anyone recommend any books/websites/services to help me get my career back on track?

Firstly, take yourself seriously, stay in your permie job for a while, and learn how to do it better. Lay off the booze if that is an issue.

Secondly, the best aid to any career is networking.

**Fungus** · 14 January 2006, 16:03

How odd. I know someone with the same name as you living and working in London. Except he is a Phillip.

I can't argue with the answers already given. Here's my thinkings:

Originally posted by KentPhilip

1. I am 36 and in my current permanent role I am one of the oldest people there. I have heard, and suspect, that there is age discrimination and as I get older this might get worse.
Is age discrimination in contracting worse or not as bad as in permie work?

You'll soon get a free bus pass. Have you started pissing yourself yet?

Seriously, I've not noticed discrimination. Most contractors I've met seem to be in their 30's, and 40's. I've seen a few younger ones and a few older ones. I presume contractors tend to retire early.

Originally posted by KentPhilip

2. If you spend some time contracting and decide to go back into permie work, is it harder to get a permie job as they might be worried that you'll leave again?

Look around and you'll see that permies leave anyway. Yes some companies do not like ex-contractors. That can make it hard to get some jobs. You need to have a good answer to "Why are you stopping contracting" when asked at interview. "Cos no-one will employ someone as tulipe and lazy as me" is not considered ideal. "Cos I want stability" is better.

Originally posted by KentPhilip

3. If you are a contractor you don't get any "career development". Does this cause contractors to find work boring and demoralising more so than permie workers generally?

I would not agree with that. I have had far more career development as a contractor, gaining experience of real time, multithreading, XML and so on. As a permie I was made to nanny more junior staff i.e. management crud. Some employers are unwilling to train permies as they are concerned they will clear off afterwards. With a contractor they use money to keep you until they no longer need you.

Originally posted by KentPhilip

4. Do contractors ever find themselves ostracised by permies because they are outsiders? Does this cause contractors to feel lonely (in the same way that people who work from home sometimes feel lonely - lack of banter with work colleagues).

Quite the opposite. As a contractor you are not competing with others to climb up the greasy pole. So they are less competitive. Mind you, I have come across one or two nasty little tulipes who were jealous at my salary. Anyone is free to contract, take the risks, and earn the money, and if they don't have the balls, or the inclination, they should keep shtum. But most people I work with are really decent and very friendly.

Originally posted by KentPhilip

5. My skills - what sort of rate might I get (in London). I make £47K permie in London, which is high because it is a niche system only used by 3 companies.

That very much depends. Your permie salary is good. You would need to make a fair bit more as a contractor as you might be travelling more, and you might be resting between contracts. Last year some contracts were as low as £30 per hour outside London. I would have thought £40 per hour and above is what you want to aim for. But the good times of 5 years ago are gone thanks in part to outsourcing. You have said little about your skills but it sounds like they are niche i.e. a small market. That means either a) few people want your skills so you won't get work or b) few people have the skills, so if someone wants them, they will pay big time.

Originally posted by KentPhilip

6. I don't think I'm the best at my job - only a 6 out of 10 I think. Although I can do the work I don't remember things too well (probably the booze :-) and have to refer to notes. Hence I'm seen as a specialist rather than someone who can see the big picture.
Are the standards of work required of contractors generally the same, higher, or lower than the equivalent permie position. (I think I am being squeezed out of work due to politics and my less-than-perfect work ability, and I don't want to make things worse for me).

IMO contractors are no better or worse than permies. From your salary, you must be capable at your job. I presume the alcohol comment was humour, but as a contractor you have to be professional. I know someone who was dismissed for spending a long weekend in Amsterdam and not turning up on Monday. However I also know someone who went AWOL, and it took weeks to find out where he was. After almost 2 months, he reappeared, and got on with the job!!! Few clients are that easy going.

Originally posted by KentPhilip

7. Is it harder to gain new skills when contracting, as the client only wants you to do a job with the skills you already have, and not give you experience with new areas?

Not so. They can rarely find an exact match. So it's a case of migrating sideways, and picking up skills as you go. I was taken on by a telecoms client without any telecoms knowledge and learnt some GSM and GPRS protocol. At my current client I have learnt some XML and TTCN (but not much).

Originally posted by KentPhilip

8. (the killer) Career counselling/books. Can anyone recommend any books/websites/services to help me get my career back on track?

Dunno. Stand in front of the mirror, hug your self, and say out loud a few hundred times "Everyone loves me. Oh, I am so talented." That's what self help books tell you to do. So, I've saved you the price of a book.

Fungus

**zeitghost** · 14 January 2006, 16:33

You can take the contractor out of contracting, but you can't take contracting out of the contractor.

In other words, once a contractor always a contractor.

I get itchy feet every 3 months.

I suspect I shall be leaving this low paid permie job in June/July since I've now had more than enough.

Oh, if only, if only.

**BlasterBates** · 14 January 2006, 16:39

The main disadvantage is that you may have to do a lot of travelling.

Age discrimination is less with contractors if at all. You find in the mainframe market it is quite normal to see contractors in their fifities, in Unix a technology that became big in the eighties and early ninties there are plenty of contractors in their forties. Windows contractors tend to be a few years younger. I suspect that the average age in the industry will move up over the next few years.

You will find yourself pigeon-holed though sometimes you can make a bit of a leap, c++ to Java isnot too difficult for example. Though from what I see, the paradigm shifts we saw in the eighties and nineties seem to be over, the market seems to be maturing.

**Fungus** · 14 January 2006, 17:59

Originally posted by BlasterBates

Though from what I see, the paradigm shifts we saw in the eighties and nineties seem to be over, the market seems to be maturing.

Thanks for that heads up. It's always good to touch base with you. Maybe we can run some ideas up the flag pole and see who salutes them? Or maybe just carry on picking the low hanging fruit?

Thomas Kuhn has a lot to answer for ...

Fungus

**BlasterBates** · 14 January 2006, 19:21

FORTRAN IV

Hang in there

You´d be surprised, I applied for a Fortran contract two years (jeez I was desperate), good there was also a C and Motif.

**Sergeant Apone** · 14 January 2006, 21:31

Originally posted by zeitghost

I think we'll need dear old Sarge to run things up flagpoles for us...

SIR! YES SIR!

You secure that tulip, Private Zeitghost.

**mcquiggd** · 14 January 2006, 22:50

With regards to age, as it seems that everyone thinks im about 8 years younger than my actual age, im going to remain 36 on my CV for a while I think. Ive never worked in a contract where that sort of information is at all checked - its irrelevant unless you go perm.

Newbie questions