Why do you vote as you do?

[Green Mango]

Lets face it.

It's either a Lib-Lab coalition with Gordo in control or the Tories.
Lab will bribe the Libs to be their bitches...

Labour have managed to load us up with debt that will take a decade or two to
pay off. Thus the Conservatives are the best hope of some fiscal prudence.

[xoggoth]

Personally I have no interest in isms, or morality or human rights or these other theoretical and largely nonsensical concepts, I think the society that works is one that goes with human nature as it, not what theorists and moralists would like it to be.

A real democracy, not just a free election or even a free election under rules that gives us a government with seats proportional to votes, but one that delivers the policies that most of us want on each major issue would a close approximation. It is possible, with measures like secret ballots in the commons, rules to prevent undue inlfluence on MPs, including by the whips, Swiss style powers to demand referenda, ability of constituents to remove MPs.

Never going to happen in a UK that has made no advances in democracy since women got the vote and has made many backward steps in awarding power to an already overpowerful state. We have adopted too much deference to authority and the mythical notion that reform is obtainable by peaceful means. Look at the examples the world gives us. Real change is never made by peaceful negotiation, only by violent challenge. Violence solves nothing is propoganda. The reality is that nothing significant is ever solved without it, or the threat of it.

[shaunbhoy]

You're right too alter boy...

Is that "alter" or "altar", or don't you appreciate they are different?

[dang65]

NHS is not welfare, state schools, fire service, police armed services are not part of welfare, they are part of the public sector service sector. Whatever school you went to clearly did not teach you basic English did it?

Well, they taught me about the Welfare State and what that means. It doesn't include the fire service, police or armed forces, no, but I didn't say it did - I just said that the people that work for those services, and everyone else, benefit from the Welfare State in myriad ways.

To pinch a definition from the web:

The key elements of the "Welfare State" were understood as being

• Social Security
• Health
• Housing
• Education, and
• Welfare and children

Contemporary arguments emphasised the inter-related nature of these services, and the importance of each for the others.

You've made it clear that you are in no way a Socialist, and you are perfectly free not to be, but by continuing to live in this country you should accept its traditions and government which have been refined and reformed over many centuries to the point where we now have an established system of Social Security, Health, Education and Welfare which make up a Welfare State which we all contribute to a little and benefit from massively.

You don't stand a chance of changing that system anyway, whichever party you decide to vote for, because the first government which tries to remove those rights would be out on its ear within minutes, simply because the massive majority of people in this country are educated and smart enough to understand what the Welfare State means for us all.

[xoggoth]

I blame Lloyd George, he kicked off the whole ghastly welfare thingy back in 19 oh summit.

[Bagpuss]

We won't be getting a change of Government, more a change of Management.. Meet the New Boss, same as the Old Boss

I really don't understand why people get so tribal about this charade we call democracy. It saddens me even further that someone on this thread stated that they decided their political allegiances aged 12! FFS

[DodgyAgent]

Well, they taught me about the Welfare State and what that means. It doesn't include the fire service, police or armed forces, no, but I didn't say it did - I just said that the people that work for those services, and everyone else, benefit from the Welfare State in myriad ways.

To pinch a definition from the web:
You've made it clear that you are in no way a Socialist, and you are perfectly free not to be, but by continuing to live in this country you should accept its traditions and government which have been refined and reformed over many centuries to the point where we now have an established system of Social Security, Health, Education and Welfare which make up a Welfare State which we all contribute to a little and benefit from massively.

You don't stand a chance of changing that system anyway, whichever party you decide to vote for, because the first government which tries to remove those rights would be out on its ear within minutes, simply because the massive majority of people in this country are educated and smart enough to understand what the Welfare State means for us all.

For me the welfare state exists to help those who are incapable of helping themselves and to act as a last resort cushion for those who may temporarily fall upon hard times. However welfare has now become a lifestyle for millions. the result is that people have become entirely dependent upon welfare. The poor are the ones who fall into the trap and many of societies underclass and criminals come from the debilitating environment of welfare. These people are dealt a double blow by being given a lousy education so they are forced into this life of dependency.

From a political point of view the politicians who are identified as being the "welfare party" (labour) know that the people on benefits and the people who run the benefits system will vote for them. It is no coincidence that the poorest parts of the country are labour controlled and it is also no coincidence that these areas will always remain poor. There is no part of any country anywhere that has ever been turned from poor to affluent by any sort of socialist regime.

People like you, Polly Toynbee and other wealthy so called socialists find the welfare state a very convenient entity. Not because you care about the poor (because you dont) but because you can show everyone that you have a high level of moral integrity, which in turn gives you some twisted authority to criticise people who you are envious of (Tories and Tory institutions such as private schools, business and wealth creation).

The left have created a perception that supporting and providing welfare is somehow a "good thing" and as a result poiltically, as with the NHS the Tories do not dare to try and reform the terrible and evil welfare system in this country. maintaining or increasing even the influence of the forces of welfare remains largely unchallenged. Only people like Frank Field are really in a position to drive reforms, but even he has been pushed to the sidelines because reforming welfare would completely undermine labours poer base.

Vested interests such as those of champagne socialists like you and the entire Welfare Industry prevent any sort of debate, thus condemning generations of people to impoverished welfare dependency. The debate now should be about how wealth can be redistributed in such a way that everyone in society can be equipped to stand on their own two feet.

The world however is changing and people like you will no longer be able to hide behind this veil of morality. Thatcher began to question the morality of socialism by exposing the socialist institutions of Nationalised Industries as evil. This is what she is vilified most for. No longer is the payment of tax seen as a virtuous. Most people at some level realise that tax does not go to the needy and nor does it go to pay for effective public services. So all the so called "moral" totems of socialism are being broken down. The left are desperate for new causes around which they can galvanise power manifested by global warming, grateful immigrants (criticism of which they can brand as racist), health & safety, ageism, sexism, and political correctness.

So you may not want anything to change, but I am afraid that everything you stand for can now be seen for what it is.

[Doggy Styles]

Seeing the strong bias in the poll on how you will vote (in which I have not voted, BTW), I am prompted to ask a follow-up: why? Is it because you think that you personally will be better off under the Conservatives? And is that a sufficient reason to vote Conservative?

I didn't vote in the poll. My vote would go to who I think will:

1. Be most economically competent
2. Oversee public services properly
3. Stop net immigration (return to immigrants minus emigrants = close to zero)
4. Stop handing over any more sovereignty to the EU

That's not just personal gain.

All I can say at the moment is that the Labour party fail on all four counts, badly on three of them.

[realityhack]

New board needs a popcorn smiley.

Brilliant idea.

[MrMark]

I dislike extremes and 1 party with 4 terms in office is not good for the country or the party.

I like the idea of the new party balancing out the extremes of the old.

I voted Labour in 1997 (I voted Lib/Dem in '92, what a wasted vote... ) and I'm going to vote Conservative in this election for that reason.

I agree with this idea of booting out the incumbents every so often - made easier by the the mistakes the current government has made. However the thing that deters me from voting Tory is the guy they've put in perhaps the most important post - shadow chancellor. Why on earth have they selected someone who's only previous job was a temp data-inputter? They've got plenty of people who've seen a bit and have gravitas eg Hague or Clark. It smacks of jobs for the privileged boys with family connections. So I will be voting Lib Dem, helped by the fact they are the party most likely to depose the incumbent Labour MP where I live.
I still feel that the outcome won't change much. The amount of debt the UK has will see to that.