I'll bet they were glad to have a firearm at home to defend themselves

[Board Game Geek]

No he wouldn't, one guy killed 5 people because its all too easy to point and shoot with a firearm thats readily available.

Most massacres wouldn't happen without guns, it's ridiculous to argue otherwise.

Many massacres happen, and are not caused by guns, per se.

We seem obesessed with focusing on the tools of the trade, the weapons themselves, and completely ignoring the people behind the atrocities.

I was trying to reason that regardless of the tool used, and it's efficacy, the root cause is where it starts and the person behind it.

Banning x,y and z might make it harder, but for a determined attacker, they will use a,b or c instead.

[gingerjedi]

And you think guy who would want to kill 5-10 people can't get illegal firearm? In anything in this case they could go for automatics.

Exactly, why make it even easier?

Most shootings in the UK are 'gang on gang' or drug dealer 'turf wars', innocent bystanders are rarely involved. Your argument about protecting yourself in your own home holds no water, most burglaries are committed by opportunist junkies, do you not think locking your windows and fitting an alarm would be a better option to 'packing heat'?

The facts speak for themselves and the UK as a very low murder rate, why you should want to upset this is beyond comprehension.

[gingerjedi]

Many massacres happen, and are not caused by guns, per se.

We seem obsessed with focusing on the tools of the trade, the weapons themselves, and completely ignoring the people behind the atrocities.

I was trying to reason that regardless of the tool used, and it's efficacy, the root cause is where it starts and the person behind it.

Banning x,y and z might make it harder, but for a determined attacker, they will use a,b or c instead.

Yes, that's the idea.

If a,b or c is a knife, club or bat then it will most certainly be less effective than an M16 or AK47 therefore less bloodshed.

I'm sure firearms score more damage points than clubs or bats, no?

[AtW]

Exactly, why make it even easier?

Why not ban all cars and save 3000 people per year? There is a PRICE to everything - freedom isn't exactly free and giving it up (right of self-defence effectively has no support in this country as people are not armed and even after in court they can go to jail if they used crude means of self defending).

Most shootings in the UK are 'gang on gang' or drug dealer 'turf wars', innocent bystanders are rarely involved. Your argument about protecting yourself in your own home holds no water, most burglaries are committed by opportunist junkies, do you not think locking your windows and fitting an alarm would be a better option to 'packing heat'?

No, it's not better option because they can still get in (doors in this country is a complete joke), and if I am inside house I'd prefer to have some effective means of self defence - YOU can choose to run away if you like or get beaten up by those guys, that's YOUR choice, but you have no right to impose YOUR choice on myself or anyone else who wants to have effective means of self defence.

It's cretinous for police to say - "self defence" isn't a legit reason for a firearm, ffs, wtf people had handguns for in this country pre-Dunblane? I'd say if you want to go to shoot on range just for the sake of it (rather than practice self defence) you are more of a nutter than someone who just wants to have means of defending ones family.

[Tarquin Farquhar]

Exactly, why make it even easier?

Most shootings in the UK are 'gang on gang' or drug dealer 'turf wars', innocent bystanders are rarely involved. Your argument about protecting yourself in your own home holds no water, most burglaries are committed by opportunist junkies, do you not think locking your windows and fitting an alarm would be a better option to 'packing heat'?

The facts speak for themselves and the UK used to have a very low murder rate, why you should want to upset this is beyond comprehension.

FTFY.

As for home protection, look at %age of "hot" burglaries (those where the occupants are in the house when the burglars enter): UK 53%, USA 12%. Difference? In one of those countries, the burglar can depend on his victims being unable to defend themselves.

[AtW]

Ok, let's say firearms are banned because of blah blah cowardly blah.

Fine.

But why on earth cans with pepper spray are banned? or CS gas in a can??!?!

It's crazy that even these innocent ways of self defence (especially for women) are not allowed, just wtf was the thinking behind it?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

FTFY.

As for home protection, look at %age of "hot" burglaries (those where the occupants are in the house when the burglars enter): UK 53%, USA 12%. Difference? In one of those countries, the burglar can depend on his victims being unable to defend themselves.

Ah the old "hot burglary argument" again. This could equally well be explained by America's supposedly longer working hours and fewer holidays, or the fact that they have no discernable welfare state so people have to go out more. America isn't the UK - such comparisons are entirely bogus.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Indeed - guns are not just there to self defence from burglars, ultimately if population is well armed (like in USA) the Govt won't be able to easily opress said population.

It's not a coincidence that in all totalitarian states ownership of guns is reserved for the Govt entities only.

Hilarious - you really seem to think that the government is less well armed than the people in the USA - their people have about as much chance of a revolution as we do. The only difference is more of them would die trying.

[AtW]

Hilarious - you really seem to think that the government is less well armed than the people in the USA - their people have about as much chance of a revolution as we do. The only difference is more of them would die trying.

Please answer my question on CS gas above.

People in USA are armed because they have balls to deal with risks of firearms - it is no suprise that they are the new empire now and UK isn't.

[Board Game Geek]

AtW posted : YOU can choose to run away if you like or get beaten up by those guys, that's YOUR choice, but you have no right to impose YOUR choice on myself or anyone else who wants to have effective means of self defence.

I can't argue with that.

AtW is right. He should be allowed his own personal choice in the sanctity of his own home. That's his domain, so his rules.