Drug use is good for you??

[Cyberman]

It'll take it away from the criminal element, I believe that's the point. I don't believe that's a bad thing.

You're statement about opening it up to youngsters is very naive, you thionk it's even remotely difficult to get drugs as a young person these days? It's probably harder to get alcohol ...

And no, what happened when our HMG opened up cannabis - I believe the government sides with you on that one, despite the advice of the independent body they commissioned to do a study.

Who cares if people like a smoke? I'm more worried about deviants who lick the chutney spoon and stick it back in afterwards.

Taking drugs away from the criminal element by legalisation will do absolutely nothing to stop its use, and thus you are being naive. The best way to stop drugs is to catch the dealers and smugglers and lock them up for a very long time. The absolutely worst thing you could do is legalise it.

[Not So Wise]

So legalising and taxing drugs will remove the problem from the streets ? Of course it won't. All it will do is open up drug use to more youngsters who believe it is more ok than ever to indulge because it is legal. Just look at what happened when our esteemed HMG lowered the classification of cannabis, making it effectively legal.

It's a question of objectives and acceptance of reality, basically two camps

A) Those who believe that drug use can be stopped and who's objective is to stop it

Well as the war on drugs has proven beyond all doubt, making drugs illegal has not worked at all. If anything, after 20+ years of the war on drugs, drug use has either remained the same or increased.

So why continue doing something that not only obviously does not work but has made criminals some of the richest people in the world, while leaving countless dead around the world, not just from drug use but from the associated criminal actives of the criminals dealing in drugs. All the while destroying lives of users, not just by drug use, but in many cases by getting caught using drugs (lose of job due to jail terms, inability to get new job due to criminal record, thus starting a vicious circle)

B)Those who accept that drugs will be used no matter what and accepting this just want to stop drugs destroying so many lives and to see the end of the criminals profiteering

• More money income for government, via tax revenue
• Massive drop in criminal profits
• Cheaper drugs, thus reducing users need for money, which would lead to reduction in crime
• Safer drugs, no more failed chem students cooking up the drugs in someone's kitchen, thus reducing deaths due to bad mix's or overdoses
• Less users being classified as "criminals", with the associated difficulties a criminal record brings, thus better enabling them to support themselves, thus less crime
• Less people in jail
• Less police resources tied up in drugs enforcement

And all the money earned/saved could then be easily used for rehabs/clinics to help those who really want to quit, with tons of money left over for other things

Note, all this would depend on gov not trying their "Make tax's so high on drugs to make people quit" strategy

[DaveB]

So legalising and taxing drugs will remove the problem from the streets ? Of course it won't. All it will do is open up drug use to more youngsters who believe it is more ok than ever to indulge because it is legal. Just look at what happened when our esteemed HMG lowered the classification of cannabis, making it effectively legal.

Actually the evidence suggests completely the opposite. Portugal decriminalised possesion of narcotics of all types in 2001. Since then Drug use amongst teenages and young people has actually fallen, HIV infection rates among grug users have crashed, deaths though drug use and related health incidents have also fallen.

Drugs have not actually be "Legalized" they have been de-criminalised. Possession is still not legal but it is now dealt with as a civil or administrative issue rather than a criminal one, and users are offered treatment, therapy and rehabilitation rather than jail. Criminal acts committed by drug users are still treated as such but actual possesion and use of drugs is no longer a criminal offense.

The over all effect has been to encourage drug users to seek help without fear of prosection, encouraged them to make use of healthcare services and has removed the "Glamour" from drug use by bringing it into mainstream society in a way that allows it to be discussed openly.

All the evidence is available from the Cato institute here

Summary and commentary samples are here and here.

The overwhelming political and social view in Portugal now is that moving drug possesion back to criminal status would be pointless and counter productive.

In the UK Cannabis was not decriminalised, it was reclassified, a decision that was reversed shortly afterwards against all scientific recommendation.

The knee jerk Daily Heil reaction to drug use is doing far more harm in devoping solutions to drug issues than the drugs themselves.


PS. I would like to apologise for the above post. The use of factual evidence and reasoned argument cannot be condoned in this forum and should be discourage at all costs. Once again I apologise whole heartedly for my behavior and hope that the congregation will show understanding during this difficult time.

[Scary]

It's a question of objectives and acceptance of reality, basically two camps

A) Those who believe that drug use can be stopped and who's objective is to stop it

Well as the war on drugs has proven beyond all doubt, making drugs illegal has not worked at all. If anything, after 20+ years of the war on drugs, drug use has either remained the same or increased.

So why continue doing something that not only obviously does not work but has made criminals some of the richest people in the world, while leaving countless dead around the world, not just from drug use but from the associated criminal actives of the criminals dealing in drugs. All the while destroying lives of users, not just by drug use, but in many cases by getting caught using drugs (lose of job due to jail terms, inability to get new job due to criminal record, thus starting a vicious circle)

B)Those who accept that drugs will be used no matter what and accepting this just want to stop drugs destroying so many lives and to see the end of the criminals profiteering

• More money income for government, via tax revenue
• Massive drop in criminal profits
• Cheaper drugs, thus reducing users need for money, which would lead to reduction in crime
• Safer drugs, no more failed chem students cooking up the drugs in someone's kitchen, thus reducing deaths due to bad mix's or overdoses
• Less users being classified as "criminals", with the associated difficulties a criminal record brings, thus better enabling them to support themselves, thus less crime
• Less people in jail
• Less police resources tied up in drugs enforcement

And all the money earned/saved could then be easily used for rehabs/clinics to help those who really want to quit, with tons of money left over for other things

Note, all this would depend on gov not trying their "Make tax's so high on drugs to make people quit" strategy

But... but... drugs are bad! Just say no!

[ace00]

A few of my friends are mad for the charlie, taking it before going to work, that kind of thing, and their idea of fun at the weekend is getting a hotel room, a big bag of chico and a few street hookers from town.

Now where's the fun in that?

[Cyberman]

The only reason we struggle to contain drugs smuggling is that the penalties are not high enough. Thailand seems to manage, for pretty obvious reasons. I'm not advocating the death penalty but throwing away the key could be a good deterrent.

[Cyberman]

Actually the evidence suggests completely the opposite. Portugal decriminalised possesion of narcotics of all types in 2001. Since then Drug use amongst teenages and young people has actually fallen, HIV infection rates among grug users have crashed, deaths though drug use and related health incidents have also fallen.

Drugs have not actually be "Legalized" they have been de-criminalised. Possession is still not legal but it is now dealt with as a civil or administrative issue rather than a criminal one, and users are offered treatment, therapy and rehabilitation rather than jail. Criminal acts committed by drug users are still treated as such but actual possesion and use of drugs is no longer a criminal offense.

The over all effect has been to encourage drug users to seek help without fear of prosection, encouraged them to make use of healthcare services and has removed the "Glamour" from drug use by bringing it into mainstream society in a way that allows it to be discussed openly.

All the evidence is available from the Cato institute here

Summary and commentary samples are here and here.

The overwhelming political and social view in Portugal now is that moving drug possesion back to criminal status would be pointless and counter productive.

In the UK Cannabis was not decriminalised, it was reclassified, a decision that was reversed shortly afterwards against all scientific recommendation.

The knee jerk Daily Heil reaction to drug use is doing far more harm in devoping solutions to drug issues than the drugs themselves.


PS. I would like to apologise for the above post. The use of factual evidence and reasoned argument cannot be condoned in this forum and should be discourage at all costs. Once again I apologise whole heartedly for my behavior and hope that the congregation will show understanding during this difficult time.

I never said that it was legalised. I said 'effectively' legalised... ie: pseudo legalised. Do you understand english ?

[Not So Wise]

The only reason we struggle to contain drugs smuggling is that the penalties are not high enough. Thailand seems to manage, for pretty obvious reasons. I'm not advocating the death penalty but throwing away the key could be a good deterrent.

And on the flip side you have America, with it's zero tolerance (personally know someone over there who is currently serving a year and half....for half a joint found under the seat of his car), it's high jail sentences, it's 3 strikes laws which has only resulted in the biggest prison population in the world and no reduction in drug use or drug related crime

Some argue, if anything, it has increased it, because get caught in one youthful indiscretion relating to drugs and your life is destroyed forever, not leaving you many options except drugs to make your way, either that or minimum wage for rest of your life

[DaveB]

I never said that it was legalised. I said 'effectively' legalised... ie: pseudo legalised. Do you understand english ?

Nice way to ignore the bulk of my post and start an argument on semantics.

Cannabis possesion wasn't legalised in any manner, effectively, pseudo or otherwise. It was still a criminal offense to be in possession of it and you could still be arrested and prosecuted for it.

How about responding to the argument that decriminalising all drug use, as in the Portugese model, actually works? As opposed to the "War On Drugs" approach.

[foggo]

It's all a dream anyway

So said Bill Hicks. But he may have been on something, nicotine or whatever

http://www.mp3link.org/Bill%20Hicks_...g/details.html