Smoking ban cop-out

[DodgyAgent]

No they are not free to do other jobs -- they don't do bar jobs because its great career choice, they do it because its pretty much the only choice they have, so they are FORCED to take the job with risk to live. Why won't you suggest to remove masks that people involved in some dust related industries -- surely they have a CHOICE to go get another job so there is no point to try to minimise threat to their health on current job?

You are scammy capitalist shwine DA - and bad at that, you give bad name to capitalism and allow NL scum to get in power.

They do have a choice, no one forces any one to do a job unless they are working outside of the law. I challenge you to go up to barworkers and suggest that they have been forced to do the job. I think that they will tell you that whether they like the job or not they have chosen to do it and that you should get your commie little arse back to North Korea

[Denny]

Like to see you try using that arguement with life insurance companies!

Insurance is all about pandering to peoples fears and risk management to ensure they don't pay out when they otherwise would have to.

They're rip off merchants, in other words.

[AtW]

They do have a choice, no one forces any one to do a job unless they are working outside of the law.

Health and safety of workers should be enforced strictly in all jobs because if its not then unscrupulous businessmen will ruin people's life seeking for quick unfair profit - bar jobs are not the ones people choose if they have better choice.

[PRC1964]

I hate to agree with an agent but...

If you don't like the job, then don't do it. If enough people don't like it the price for that job will rise. There will then come a point where people will be happy to do the job or when the job will cease to exist because it is no longer viable.

The market sorts these things out much better than any polititian can.

[Not So Wise]

many staff in pub's don't actually have that choice.

They did get a choice, when they accepted the job. Wea re talking here generally the "bottom of the barrel", they could have just as easly taken a job as bin men, or parking attendants (probably got better pay to). That argument has about as much merit as binmen complaining about having to work with unhealthy substances or parking attendents saying they were giving no choice but to work all day in polution filled streets.

once you've lived without smoking pubs for a while it's amazing how much of an non-issue it becomes for smokers

It does not become a non issue, just smokers give up complaining because at the end of the the anti smokeing lobby is just as powerful as the tabacco lobby but where politicians don't like to come out publicly for the smokers they just love to come out for the anti smokers as it is seen as more "acceptable"

Went back this year to ireland for first time in about 8 years, every pub i went to was the same. If they had a beer barden or patio 80% of the patrons were outside under those outside overhead umbrellas (in febuary!!!) while inside a tiny portion of the patrons sat in a nice clean pub. Most places without an outside had either closed down or had a huge drop in buisness (with bar staff laid off)

Absolutely no fecking way should it be allowed in restaurants - that should have been binned years ago.

About the only thing i agree with in the ban, but sod for health reason but for hygiene reasons, ash does have a habit of getting around.

They can't walk in and demand that the pub be smoke free and there aren't too many smoke free pubs doing the rounds (I personally only know two in London, neither close to my work or home).

Actually they can, by refuseing to go, enough do that and soon enough you find a place becomes no smokeing. And know what? Chains like weatherspoons tried that, every single one of their pubs was no smokeing at one stage and even with their rock bottom drink/food prices many of their pubs were struggleing because people did really not want to be in that boreing smoke free atmosphere (because all the smokers and their friends were elsewhere). Now many if not most have smokeing areas. The people (not a vocal minority) have already spoken, the government is trying to reverse the peoples choice

And the debate on passive smoking is over; on balance where peoples health is concerned, you have to err on the side of caution,

Know another debate that is long over? Car Polution and it's effects on health, sooo you going to support a car ban as well?

And tell me what you going to do when they do like what happened when i was in the states (alabama) last year, while i was there they passed a another law, that in or on any goverment funded institution property one could not smoke, that even included hospital carparks, even if you were in your own car ffs.

[AtW]

If you don't like the job, then don't do it.

Its a flawed arguement that does not work in extreme cases at the bottom -- people who take jobs of barman, shelve stacker etc don't get to choose much: they are effectively FORCED to take what's on offer OR get on benefits. The choice these poeple have is non-existance and therefore arguement of "get a better job then" does not apply.

DA is just the kind of guy from Dickens's (sp?) stories that would make 10 year old kids dig coal for a few pennies because they have a choice not to do it and die from hunger. Its because of the guys like that NL get votes.

[snaw]

They did get a choice, when they accepted the job. Wea re talking here generally the "bottom of the barrel", they could have just as easly taken a job as bin men, or parking attendants (probably got better pay to). That argument has about as much merit as binmen complaining about having to work with unhealthy substances or parking attendents saying they were giving no choice but to work all day in polution filled streets.


It does not become a non issue, just smokers give up complaining because at the end of the the anti smokeing lobby is just as powerful as the tabacco lobby but where politicians don't like to come out publicly for the smokers they just love to come out for the anti smokers as it is seen as more "acceptable"

Went back this year to ireland for first time in about 8 years, every pub i went to was the same. If they had a beer barden or patio 80% of the patrons were outside under those outside overhead umbrellas (in febuary!!!) while inside a tiny portion of the patrons sat in a nice clean pub. Most places without an outside had either closed down or had a huge drop in buisness (with bar staff laid off)

About the only thing i agree with in the ban, but sod for health reason but for hygiene reasons, ash does have a habit of getting around.

Actually they can, by refuseing to go, enough do that and soon enough you find a place becomes no smokeing. And know what? Chains like weatherspoons tried that, every single one of their pubs was no smokeing at one stage and even with their rock bottom drink/food prices many of their pubs were struggleing because people did really not want to be in that boreing smoke free atmosphere (because all the smokers and their friends were elsewhere). Now many if not most have smokeing areas. The people (not a vocal minority) have already spoken, the government is trying to reverse the peoples choice


Know another debate that is long over? Car Polution and it's effects on health, sooo you going to support a car ban as well?

And tell me what you going to do when they do like what happened when i was in the states (alabama) last year, while i was there they passed a another law, that in or on any goverment funded institution property one could not smoke, that even included hospital carparks, even if you were in your own car ffs.

Thing is the day is coming, it's just a question of time and when it does let's have this debate again. I know how it goes cause I lived in a city where it happened and quite simply people will not accept a return to smoking pubs, the arguement would be ridiculous. And BTW the pubs were just as packed and from personal experience of Irish friends, living in Ireland, who smoke, they don't mind the ban one bit.

On the safety issue, trusting the free market and job movement to solve a health issue is blatently not going to change a single thing. Profits and income come first for business and people, not long term health.

To use some analogy about car pollution is completely irrelevent. Yes car fumes are bad and anything we can do to reduce emmisions is a good thing, but car's are an essential aspect of day to day life for everyone and there is a trade off made there - smoking in pubs isn't, any way you look at it.

[Rebecca Loos]

Snaw, the problem is that for the moment you are allowed to go on to the street to have your ciggie, but after a while, I am sure they'll ban that too. I think the smokers who don't mind the ban at present are only saying this because it is actually easy to pop out to have your ciggie. But when it stops becoming easy (and it will - they'll find a way to ban people from smoking in the streets, then in their own cars, then even in their own houses!), then I'd like to see the smokers opinion.
I am not a regular smoker, but I am for freedom of choice - and as a true free market believer, I think that if smoke-free pubs was what people want, then they'd be many more of those already

[The Lone Gunman]

To use some analogy about car pollution is completely irrelevent. Yes car fumes are bad and anything we can do to reduce emmisions is a good thing, but car's are an essential aspect of day to day life for everyone and there is a trade off made there - smoking in pubs isn't, any way you look at it.

What you mean is, you like your car so dont see why you should have to give it up. Polution could be drastically reduced if individuals were banned from owning vehicles and forced onto mass transport.

Simple fact, which you and other anti smokers dont seem to be able to grasp.
At the moment you have a choice.
You are quite happy to remove that choice from smokers.

If it is about health then ban smoking completely, but while it is legal to smoke then smokers should be allowed to smoke.
Many work places banned smoking when staff started asking for smoke free offices and quiting their jobs to get away from smokers.

You antis simply do not have the balls to stand up for your own convictions, as do the staff who are complaining. If you feel there is such a big need for non smoking facilities then buy a place and run it, you should make a mint.
If you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

[Lucifer Box]

And BTW the pubs were just as packed and from personal experience of Irish friends, living in Ireland, who smoke, they don't mind the ban one bit.

"However, the Vintners' Federation of Ireland (VFI) said pubs, particularly in rural areas, had been hit with turnover down on average between 20 and 30%."