Oxymoron?

[Mich the Tester]

They have their share of blame, but no-one held a gun to the head of those who took out loans.

The banks ARE largely to blame. Of course, people who took out huge debts to spend on stuff that provides little long term value are a part of the problem, but the whole point of a ‘financial expert’ such as an advisor or bank manager is that he must help his clients to make sensible financial decisions. It seems to me that an entire sector failed in its most basic responsibility of selling products that are safe for the consumer to use. Anyone selling a product is legally bound to ensure the safety of his product. The car industry is forced by law to test all products for crash safety. The pharmaceutical industry is held to very strict standards to protect the safety of patients. There’s perhaps a case for saying that bankers who extended nonsense credit that consumers can’t handle should be prosecuted for knowingly selling dangerous products. I’m not saying the bankrupt consumers should be compensated, but somehow the law needs to come crashing down on those in positions of ‘expertise’ and responsibility who have knowingly misled us all.

[Platypus]

You really should make things clear.

I wasn't trying to defend my position (for which I accept full responsibility), just trying to point out some alternative POVs on the issue.

I feel bad for people who followed the Government's example and lived for today by remortgaging their house to the hilt and borrowing heavily on cards. Yes maybe they shouldn't have, but this is the general public we're talking about - the same people who voted in this government - hardly the intelligentsia.

Now these people are in the tulip, losing their jobs and houses, going bust, whatever. And they're genuinely baffled wondering "what did I do?"

And they blame the banks and the government because it was their behaviour in lending all this money that signalled that it was ok, the norm, nothing to worry about.

And I think these people have a point.

[Ruprect]

What I find amazing is the contrast with getting finance for a sensible business plan. Even before the credit crunch I knew many tales from businesspeople of the work involved in convincing a bank manager to lend a business even small sums to buy machinery, vans or pay rent deposits on premises. Several years ago I had to work hard to convince my bank manager to lend me some money to pay for a rather expensive technical course; eventually after reviewing and reworking the business case 3 times he agreed and I paid it back within a year. Now I hear of consumers racking up 150 thousand quid in unsecured debt and it just defies belief. Did nobody think to ask people what they were spending the money on when they borrowed it? I mean, if someone says he wants to spend 150k on a bottling machine to increase the output of his fruit juice company he has to produce a well worked out business case, examined by accountants and then the bottling machine will be security against the loan. A consumer on the other hand can borrow the same amount to spend on posh holidays, flashy shoes, flat screen tellies and booze with no questions asked.

"Brown's Britain". In a nutshell.

[Platypus]

Aww.. Has de nasty nat upset diddums?

No. Were you trying?

[Svalbaard]

I wasn't trying to defend my position (for which I accept full responsibility), just trying to point out some alternative POVs on the issue.

I feel bad for people who followed the Government's example and lived for today by remortgaging their house to the hilt and borrowing heavily on cards. Yes maybe they shouldn't have, but this is the general public we're talking about - the same people who voted in this government - hardly the intelligentsia.

Now these people are in the tulip, losing their jobs and houses, going bust, whatever. And they're genuinely baffled wondering "what did I do?"

And they blame the banks and the government because it was their behaviour in lending all this money that signalled that it was ok, the norm, nothing to worry about.

And I think these people have a point.

"What did I do?"

Well, you borrowed more than you could afford to pay back so you could keep up appearances. Only now that the piper wants to be paid you realise what a stupid tw*t you have been (I don't mean you personally Platypus OK).

I agree that the banks should shoulder some of the blame. But there is also a certain amount of responsibility to oneself and family to manage financial affairs prudently. It used to be that bankruptcy was the great unmentionable with proper consequences. Now, just like everything else - it has become commodotised to the point where I feel people will not learn from the experience and it truly has become an easy way out.

[Platypus]

The car industry is forced by law to test all products for crash safety. The pharmaceutical industry is held to very strict standards to protect the safety of patients. There’s perhaps a case for saying that bankers who extended nonsense credit that consumers can’t handle should be prosecuted for knowingly selling dangerous products.

Thought provoking point. Thx.

[Platypus]

But there is also a certain amount of responsibility to oneself and family to manage financial affairs prudently.

You won't find me disagreeing there.

It used to be that bankruptcy was the great unmentionable with proper consequences

Like debtors prison? I think it's a good thing we've moved on.

[ace00]

And they blame the banks and the government because it was their behaviour in lending all this money that signalled that it was ok, the norm, nothing to worry about.

And I think these people have a point.

Yeh, me too TBH. A trinity of foolishness, government, banks and consumers.

It's the Labour attempt to shift all blame to bankers upsets me: it's the politics of the morally bankrupt & it's very dangerous. Go look at 1930's Germany for similar.

[Svalbaard]

You won't find me disagreeing there.

Like debtors prison? I think it's a good thing we've moved on.

Likewise, I don't want to disagree with you. But I know a couple who owe lots and have built up this debt knowing full well that they can always declare bankruptcy without any consequences other than a period of time where they can't get credit to buy more pointless carp.

[Cyberman]

Yeh, me too TBH. A trinity of foolishness, government, banks and consumers.

It's the Labour attempt to shift all blame to bankers upsets me: it's the politics of the morally bankrupt & it's very dangerous. Go look at 1930's Germany for similar.

.. but Labour always have been morally bankrupt. Remember the lies of 'we have no plans to raise taxes', 'no return to boom and bust', 'we will be whiter than white' etc. Then they proceed to outsleaze the Tories on a grand scale, fiddle expenses, teach sex to five year olds, etc etc.