"I've never had a job"

[Peoplesoft bloke]

If the middle classes are driven to poverty and desperation by the current economic shambles, will we all have an immediate answer to the problems of poverty and deprivation? I ask because we all seem to know how this woman in Glasgow should have improved her circumstances, but will our education and our nice accents and good taste really help us if we end up impoverished by some wbankers hubris?

You're doing it again - good points - and as for all the "you can do anything if you try" merchants, that's just rrrrs - full marks for effort but some things jist ain't going to happen

[sunnysan]

America

Clearly you've never been to a third world country and seen the poorer parts up close ...

America is not a third world country. My point is that how much benefit is derived from the system as it stands now. IE How much better off are the worst off here than in the US.

Granted I have not seen American poverty up close, so I admit I may have overestimated the conditions there, but from my vantage point it doesnt look that much worse than the worst off here.

I have also had enough exposure to 3rd world poverty to realise that abject destitution, starvation, lack of medical and sanitary facilities is a different issue to what is being discussed here.

I, like you have NFI what the solution is.

[Mich the Tester]

America is not a third world country. My point is that how much benefit is derived from the system as it stands now. IE How much better off are the worst off here than in the US.

Granted I have not seen American poverty up close, so I admit I may have overestimated the conditions there, but from my vantage point it doesnt look that much worse than the worst off here.

I have also had enough exposure to 3rd world poverty to realise that abject destitution, starvation, lack of medical and sanitary facilities is a different issue to what is being discussed here.

I, like you have NFI what the solution is.

I've seen 3rd world poverty and I've seen US poverty; while it's possible to exaggerate, there are parts of the US which I'd classify as 3rd world. OK, so I'm not talking Ethiopian style starvation, but how bad do you think it should be? Parts of US cities like Detroit and Philladelphia simply aren't any longer a part of the 1st world. The rates of literacy, life expectancy among men, violence and almost inescapable poverty in those places are not much different to Lagos or Calcutta. Peopl are just a bit fatter.

[ratewhore]

I have also had enough exposure to 3rd world poverty to realise that abject destitution, starvation, lack of medical and sanitary facilities is a different issue to what is being discussed here.

I'd call that real poverty, as opposed to the Blair style poverty where you don't have a tumble dryer...

[minestrone]

I think the big concern is that the woman's family probably would have been quite hard working at one point and in a couple of generations they are now totally state dependant. Once you lose it it’s very hard to get back.

[snaw]

America is not a third world country. My point is that how much benefit is derived from the system as it stands now. IE How much better off are the worst off here than in the US.

Granted I have not seen American poverty up close, so I admit I may have overestimated the conditions there, but from my vantage point it doesnt look that much worse than the worst off here.

I have also had enough exposure to 3rd world poverty to realise that abject destitution, starvation, lack of medical and sanitary facilities is a different issue to what is being discussed here.

I, like you have NFI what the solution is.

Actually you got me there. I read the original post as Philippines, not Philadelphia. Had NFI what you were on about till I went back and re-read it.

[sunnysan]

So

I've seen 3rd world poverty and I've seen US poverty; while it's possible to exaggerate, there are parts of the US which I'd classify as 3rd world. OK, so I'm not talking Ethiopian style starvation, but how bad do you think it should be? Parts of US cities like Detroit and Philladelphia simply aren't any longer a part of the 1st world. The rates of literacy, life expectancy among men, violence and almost inescapable poverty in those places are not much different to Lagos or Calcutta. Peopl are just a bit fatter.

So would most here agree, that the amount of money spent on keeping people like the lot mentioned in article "out of poverty" is money well spent?

Do the board feel that it is the better of two evils?

[Mich the Tester]

I'd call that real poverty, as opposed to the Blair style poverty where you don't have a tumble dryer...

So you would like to see the unemployable starved to death, with all the disease and violence that that would bring with it? Come on, it costs almost bugger all to provide a 16 year old single mother with a roof, basic sanitation and food, when you compare it to the amount of money that’s wasted on ID databases, internet tracking databases and bureaucratic nonsense. The real waste of your taxes is in government bureaucracy. The consequences of leaving hopeless people to their own devices would be much worse and more expensive than just accepting that some people, sometimes through their own fault, aren’t equipped to look after themselves and the only thing we can do is try and improve matters for their offspring.

[sunnysan]

No worries

Actually you got me there. I read the original post as Philippines, not Philadelphia. Had NFI what you were on about till I went back and re-read it.

Well, to be honest your mistaken assertions have actually raised a more interesting argument re US vs UK

[ratewhore]

So you would like to see the unemployable starved to death, with all the disease and violence that that would bring with it? Come on, it costs almost bugger all to provide a 16 year old single mother with a roof, basic sanitation and food, when you compare it to the amount of money that’s wasted on ID databases, internet tracking databases and bureaucratic nonsense. The real waste of your taxes is in government bureaucracy. The consequences of leaving hopeless people to their own devices would be much worse and more expensive than just accepting that some people, sometimes through their own fault, aren’t equipped to look after themselves and the only thing we can do is try and improve matters for their offspring.

Oh please, don't be retarded.

Supporting those who can't is the right way for society to function. Supporting those who won't is not. Just don't tell me someone is in poverty because some number crunching says they don't have something over 50% of the population have, such as a tumble dryer.