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Speed-trap police are told to look before they pounce

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    Speed-trap police are told to look before they pounce

    Speed-trap police are told to look before they pounce
    By Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
    POLICE are to be given new guidelines on using mobile speed cameras because of concerns that they are breaking the law by trapping motorists at too great a distance.

    Laser cameras, which can either be handheld or mounted in vans, are certified by the Home Office for use at a range of up to 1,000 metres (3,281ft).

    But the law states that a camera operator must be able to form a “prior opinion” that a vehicle is breaking the limit before using the camera to record its speed. The law dates from the days before radar speed guns when all that was needed to convict a driver of speeding was the opinion of two officers.

    The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) is concerned that some officers and civilian operators may be ignoring the law and firing their lasers at random. (AtW: finally, they fecking woke up!!!)

    Camera partnerships, which include police and local authorities, are increasingly using mobile cameras instead of fixed cameras because the rules on deploying them are less stringent. A mobile camera can be used on any stretch of road where there have been two or more serious crashes in the previous three years. A fixed camera can be installed only after a fourth serious crash.

    Partnerships are also finding that their income is dropping from fixed cameras because they have been painted yellow and are easy to spot. Motorists slow down for a hundred yards and then speed up again. (AtW: oi look, they should be happy it works, but wait their incomes drop and job is more important than laws!)

    Mobile cameras usually catch drivers before they have even spotted the officer standing by the road or the camera van. There is no flash and the first time many motorists realise they have been caught is when they receive a penalty notice in the post.

    The Department for Transport requires camera operators to be visible from 100 metres, but admits that motorists may be caught outside this range. (AtW: if they break rules and you prove it, then it still does not affect their case against you) Several motorists caught by mobile cameras are fighting their penalties on the ground that they were detected so far away that it would have been impossible for anyone to have formed an opinion they were speeding.

    Richard Cleary, 45, was allegedly caught doing 70mph on a 60mph road in Wiltshire. He requested a video from the camera partnership which showed the speed recording was made when he was 728 metres from the camera van. He revisited the site and claims that even someone with perfect eyesight could not have told the difference between 60mph and 70mph. His case has been adjourned to allow some technical issues to be clarified.

    Ian Bell, ACPO’s speed camera liaison officer, said that the guidelines were being reviewed because of concerns that they were unclear. “It was felt that during the revision of ACPO’s manual it might be necessary to emphasise the need to have a prior opinion that the driver was speeding,” he said.

    Mr Bell said that there were no written rules on the distance at which it would be deemed reasonably possible to form an opinion. “The operator has to be able to say that he could visually tell that the vehicle was speeding, but the distance depends on the site. From a motorway bridge, the distance could be 400 to 600 metres. But in a congested area it could be only 100 metres.”

    Paul Smith, founder of Safe Speed, the anti-camera campaign, said: “The system operates on the principle that people will simply pay the fixed penalty without challenging them or studying the rules. The system would grind to a halt if everyone with a legitimate case took it to court.”

    ---

    Feckers - I am still with 3 points and keeping it all down, but God or Chico better help them when I: a) get my citizenship and b) get spare funds to fight legal cases. Feckers!

    #2
    Get your citizenship?? Nobody who gets speeding tickets, believes in homeopathy or has a moustache should ever be allowed British citizenship! Why should hoemopathy be limited to medical conditions? Why not shave off your moustache, burn it to ash, dilute it in 10,000 gallons of distilled water, take one tiny drop of that, dilute it it in 10,000 gallons of water and sell it as homeopathic moustache for people who can't grow a real one? Or you could take your speeding ticket, burn it to ash, dilute it in....
    bloggoth

    If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'
    John Wayne (My guru, not to be confused with my beloved prophet Jeremy Clarkson)

    Comment


      #3
      But the law states that a camera operator must be able to form a “prior opinion” that a vehicle is breaking the limit before using the camera to record its speed.
      '
      Interestingly I know of one favourite place for a speed trap outside Mansfield. It's 100m off the crest on the backside of a hill where the police cannot possibly see the cars before they come over and they most certainly have the camera trained on the vehicles coming towards them, there is absolutely no way that could have formed a prior opinion, peoples reactions just do not work that fast.

      Would that mean all the tickets they've made out are invalid?

      I've been stopped there, for being "the only car not speeding".
      Insanity: repeating the same actions, but expecting different results.
      threadeds website, and here's my blog.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by threaded
        Would that mean all the tickets they've made out are invalid?
        Court practice shows that this is irrelevant -- effectively magistrates ignore the law and just convict the guy on the believe that he is trying to weasel out of the situation. This however generally gives good grounds for appeal, but few people follow this route, which is why they got away with it until victims (motorists) started reading up and discussing points of law online, and now people are a lot smarter than before -- and more people choose to defend their rights.

        This is good -- if only 10% of people went to court (their costs are pityful) then the whole system will collapse because its based on people self-incriminating themselves! There is no other example where the law requires to either admit you are guilty or get done for not admitting it!

        I mean its really fecking ridiculous -- an alleged murder in court has full right to remain silent and not give evidence against himself, but if motorist refuses to identify who was driving car then he automatically gets done for refusing to self incriminate himself!

        I could understood this extra tax if price of petrol was 2-3 times lower, like in USA, but feck me - this is taking the piss: its one thing to milk motorists via petrol duty, but this is EXTRA milking that results in people losing license. And please spare me your "don't speed and you won't lose it".
        Last edited by AtW; 26 August 2005, 20:07.

        Comment


          #5
          Fking bastards make people swet for 2 weeks before knowing if they get done or not -- should have had decency to have website where owners can type in their number plate and get info. EDS would do that only for a £1 bln.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by threaded
            'I've been stopped there, for being "the only car not speeding".

            Didn't you see the "No Fat Feckers" sign then?

            Comment


              #7
              There is no other example where the law requires to either admit you are guilty or get done for not admitting it!
              Actually the law does nor require that. Although most people do.

              What the law requires is a satisfactory declaration of who was driving the vehicle. It does not require that to be done in such a way as it is usable in evidence against you (although the standard form signed by the owner is admissable - no surprise there).

              There is a risky strategy available which involves having somebody else filling in the forrm on your behalf and not signing it. This satisfies the requirements for declaration but is strictly NOT admissiable as evidence in court because it is hearsay.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by ASB
                There is a risky strategy available which involves having somebody else filling in the forrm on your behalf and not signing it. This satisfies the requirements for declaration but is strictly NOT admissiable as evidence in court because it is hearsay.
                No - it does not work anymore -- there are plenty of court cases against motorists so you can be darn sure it won't work. If form is not signed then registered keeper will be done for not providing information in the first place, and get same punishment with different code, and that code is not liked by insurance companies at all.

                New thing is PACE route where by you provide the information requested (so you clean as far as law required you to do it), but state clearly that since you were not cautioned it means that your information can't be used as evidence in court -- PACE's requirement. And there is a High Court case which states PACE applies, so this appears to be pretty good route -- Scameraships are known to quietly drop cases rather than go to court.

                More info here - http://pepipoo.com/NewForums2/index.php

                Comment


                  #9
                  [quoteIf form is not signed then registered keeper will be done for not providing information in the first place[/quote]

                  Correct. But that's not the point. It does not have to be signed by the registered keeper. IT can be signed by their agent.

                  Firstly Section 172 of the road traffic act is the relevant part. This requires that the information be furnished. It does not force a conditional offer for a speeding offence to be signed by the keeper in order to satisfy the provisions of making the declaration.

                  There is a small body of opinion which does suggest that not signing it would make you guilty of failing to provide the details and a much wider body that takes the view that <i>your</i> signature is not required. Have sombody else fill it in and sign it as your agent.

                  (Unfortuantely on my original post I imistakenly included the word not when saying get somebody else to fill it in)

                  There is also a question over whether or not it breaces article 6(1) of the ECHR. This provides the right to slience as a suspect. This right is denied by forcing completion of the certificate.

                  Heres a link to a relevant case: http://www.rjerrard.co.uk/law/cases/brown00.htm

                  I entirely agree that none of this is likely to help ones case - but the point I was making was to counter your assertion that it was mandatory to incriminate yourself. It is not.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ASB
                    I entirely agree that none of this is likely to help ones case - but the point I was making was to counter your assertion that it was mandatory to incriminate yourself. It is not.
                    It is -- you are supposed to tell the truth to your agent and this will be used in court against you. If prosecution makes mistake and uses unsigned form in court as evidence of speeding, then yes -- they will fail, but now they are wise and will refuse to accept unsigned form from anybody, which means they will treat it as not supplying information and do you under section 172.

                    Note -- you referred to case in Scotland, and there are fairly big differences between English and Scottish law in this area. The primary difference (I think) is that you can't refer to English High Court decisions as precedents when defending in Scottish High Court. I could be wrong about this difference, but I know for fact that there are differences and what works in England won't work in Scotland, specifically recent PACE defence that seems fairly fool proof.

                    Comment

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