Next General Election

[expat]

The Tories will have to raise taxes when they come to power, but this will be to fill the black hole left by the profligate New Lie.

Nice bit of wriggling there.

So when you say that the Tories lower taxes, what you mean is that they raise taxes but it's not their fault.

[malvolio]

Nice bit of wriggling there.

So when you say that the Tories lower taxes, what you mean is that they raise taxes but it's not their fault.

What a narrow world you inhabit, old boy. What you fail to note is that while the Tories may shuffle taxes around to the same extent as the NL goonies, they have invarably raised the overall tax income of the country by increasing the amount of business done and hence the amount of money in the overall economy. Eire did the same trick for a while by dropping CT from 30-odd% down to 18%. The Great Awkward's approach - taxing by stealth every single area of human activitiy and stifling income generation while simultaneously claiming to be reducing taxes - is why we're in the mess we are.

However, we should be careful to distinguish the three parties here, Tory, Labour and New Labour: the latter are simply a bastard mutation led by a bunch of charmless, self-centered and utterly incapable chancers and nothing to do with the real Labour party at all.

[Cyberman]

Nice bit of wriggling there.

So when you say that the Tories lower taxes, what you mean is that they raise taxes but it's not their fault.

It is an unfortunate fact that the Tories will have to fill a hole in the finances because New Lie have ignored it, and you're a fool if you believe that the Tories are responsible for our current deficits. We are now probably entering a period of recession where unemployment will rise and costs to the state will rise accordingly. There is no money in the kitty because New Lie are incapable of cutting spending and have built no buffer for bad times.

I hope the Tories will not have to raise taxes but commonsense tells me that they will not have much alternative if the economy will be in the mess that I anticipate when they come to power.

[expat]

What a narrow world you inhabit, old boy.

Insults. Time to go.

[The Lone Gunman]

The anti tories here seem to have a very one eyed view.

Certainly the Tories are not the low tax regime some claim them to be, but Labour and NL are much worse than you seem to believe.
The thing the Tories did do was raise the amount people had left after tax. It doesnt matter if we are paying 90% tax as long as we are all driving Rollers.

Every Government is subject to global and local conditions. Not just the Tories, but NL too. Thatcher and major had to deal with some fairly major local, continental and global changes. Some of these changes were good, some were bad. There was a certain amount of pain involved in aligning UK with Europe and then with global economic collapses.

The UK was on the up when NL came to power. We had ridden out a global down turn some years before and were making progress in all quarters. That is not just my belief, it was reported accross all the press both nationaly and internationaly at the time and by UK and European economics watchdogs. NL inherited the single best economy any Government has been blessed with.
On top of that Europe and the world has had a sustained period of economic growth and stability. The old Eastern block slowly coming of age and become part of the world economy has opened markets never available before.
During this period NL have not only emptied our bank account (as a nation) but they have robbed us of our savings (private pensions) and have put us into massive debt (Gordons economic cycles have been conveniently forgoton). The country is on its uppers.
I am not totaly blaming NL, there has been a massive stumble in the global economy, but I am blaming NL for leaving us so exposed to the effects of this stumble.

Even if the Tories win the next election, it will take years to undo this damage.

[malvolio]

Insults. Time to go.

Jeez. that's not an insult, merely an observation. What you most likely mean is you can't counter my argument so you're running away. Don't close the door on the way out though...

[Churchill]

Jeez. that's not an insult, merely an observation. What you most likely mean is you can't counter my argument so you're running away. Don't close the door on the way out though...

It must be great your life. I'm really envious.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

What a narrow world you inhabit, old boy. What you fail to note is that while the Tories may shuffle taxes around to the same extent as the NL goonies, they have invarably raised the overall tax income of the country by increasing the amount of business done and hence the amount of money in the overall economy.

This is an interesting contention that, unlike the stuff from Cyberman, sounds as if it might be based on some research (rather than "well anyone knows") - what are your sources for it?

However, we should be careful to distinguish the three parties here, Tory, Labour and New Labour: the latter are simply a bastard mutation led by a bunch of charmless, self-centered and utterly incapable chancers and nothing to do with the real Labour party at all.

I'm honestly finding hard to see how that epithet (bastard mutation) couldn't apply to almost any of our current political parties - though there are notable and honourable exceptions in all of them.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Does anyone remember what the Tories' role was in introducing / increasing VAT? I seem to recall that decreases in top rate tax were paid for more or less with VAT receipts. Might have got the details wrong.

Howe replaced the two VAT rates (12.5% "luxury" and 8% for most stuff) with a single 15% rate - almost doubling the tax bills on essential expenditure for many overnight - but he did cut basic rate tax* to 30% from 33% and higher rates too.

* There was a reduced rate of 25% that Howe abolished the following year - similar to the 10p rate stuff we've just had - funny how history repeats itself.

Later that other fiscal genius Lamont jacked VAT up to 17.5% to pay for sorting out the Poll tax fiasco and replacing it with the Council tax, and choosing his words carefully, lovely John Major said he had no plans to put VAT on domestic heating bills - then did it anyway at 8%. This was supposed to rise to 17.5% later but there was a back bench rebellion.

[malvolio]

This is an interesting contention that, unlike the stuff from Cyberman, sounds as if it might be based on some research (rather than "well anyone knows") - what are your sources for it?

Mostly by living through the last 35 years and paying attention to what's going on around me. However there is a graph in a paper to be found at http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/2901/1/2901.pdf that supports that view (and also highlights the terrible damage done in the 90's by the general recession and our foray into the ERM). From 1980, the tax rate went down, the amount of CT went up until the recession, then recovered and started climbing again. Then since 2002, when the Great Awkward suddenly believed his own propaganda and began fiddling, it's been heading steadily downwards...

I'm honestly finding hard to see how that epithet (bastard mutation) couldn't apply to almost any of our current political parties - though there are notable and honourable exceptions in all of them.

Have to say I have yet to find a single NL-inspired muppet worth fourpence. Even Tony Benn sounds sane and reasonable in comparison.