Newsnight grrrrr

[snaw]

The healthcare system would be killing itself if we were all healthy or dead. Big health care systems require a large pool of sick people to survive, and they do always get bigger...The successful parasite does not kill the host it feeds off.

I think the problem is you're trying to fit a complex system into a simple thesis. Good health care means people live longer, therefore pay more into the system over the long term in contributions of some kind - and reach old age, where they probably get more sick and take money out of the system.

The system doesn't exist to create more sick people who survive, it exists to help sick people survive and possibly to make money, ni the case of private - in which case it's interest is directly opposed to your proposal - it wants healthy people, but healthy people who contribute. Your theory would have more credibility if there was the capability for people to never be sick in which case they might never opt into the system in the first place. But in the 21st century this clearly isn't possible.

[TimberWolf]

I think the problem is you're trying to fit a complex system into a simple thesis. Good health care means people live longer, therefore pay more into the system over the long term in contributions of some kind - and reach old age, where they probably get more sick and take money out of the system.

The system doesn't exist to create more sick people who survive, it exists to help sick people survive and possibly to make money, in the case of private - in which case it's interest is directly opposed to your proposal - it wants healthy people, but healthy people who contribute. Your theory would have more credibility if there was the capability for people to never be sick in which case they might never opt into the system in the first place. But in the 21st century this clearly isn't possible.

Absolutely. People usually equate a healthy heathcare system with being a large one able to treat more and more sick people. It would not be so large and successful if the population were healthy though. Old age is a form of sickness and private healthcare a symbiotic relationship with the parasite available to people fit enough to be to afford this relationship. The option is not open to the unfit. Don't forget fitness to a healthsystem (a parasite) is not health, it's money.

[Rantor]

I think NHS is one of the best things we have in this country, and I'd love to see the reaction of all those who bash it if they had a shot of living somewhere else without it for a wee while. ..

I do live elsewhere, and the healthcare system is way better than the NHS and is available to all irrespective of income - it just isn't a statist behemoth like the nhs.

Healthcare can be good in Britain, or it can be cack, but you have little or no choice in how/when/if treatment will be available. The role of GPs, throttling access to specialist services, is sickening and allows way too many people to play god (or de-facto state appointed executioner - it depends on how you look at it.)

Why does the NHS have to take the patriarchal, "you'll take what we say is good for you" form it currently does? Why is it impossible to discuss changing how it works in Britain?

We left london in 2005 for 6 months and drifted into settling here and healthcare is one of the main reasons for staying here rather than going back to britain.

[expat]

In the good old days people got better or died. Result: healthier people.

And dead people.

[snaw]

I do live elsewhere, and the healthcare system is way better than the NHS and is available to all irrespective of income - it just isn't a statist behemoth like the nhs.

Healthcare can be good in Britain, or it can be cack, but you have little or no choice in how/when/if treatment will be available. The role of GPs, throttling access to specialist services, is sickening and allows way too many people to play god (or de-facto state appointed executioner - it depends on how you look at it.)

Why does the NHS have to take the patriarchal, "you'll take what we say is good for you" form it currently does? Why is it impossible to discuss changing how it works in Britain?

We left london in 2005 for 6 months and drifted into settling here and healthcare is one of the main reasons for staying here rather than going back to britain.

Guess it depends where you go - I've experienced first hand the US and Australian healthcare systems, which are better in some respects - but come at a very hefty cost and aren't so good if you fall by tough times. I've lived in Holland and not really experienced the Dutch system, but it seems better tan here.

I was probably a bit too sweeping in my statement, but as a rule I think the NHS is a very underrated UK institution.

[Lucy]

Guess it depends where you go - I've experienced first hand the US and Australian healthcare systems, which are better in some respects - but come at a very hefty cost and aren't so good if you fall by tough times. I've lived in Holland and not really experienced the Dutch system, but it seems better tan here.

I was probably a bit too sweeping in my statement, but as a rule I think the NHS is a very underrated UK institution.

I would be interested to read your experiences in the Australian healthcare system and what costs you are talking about.

[snaw]

Medicare. Ever heard of it - you don't get it until you become a citizen. Medicine and doctors cost money. Dentists cost money etc.

Not the NHS subsidised kind either, big chunks of cash. Then when you got it you still have to pay something when you visit a doctor, or dentist etc.

[Churchill]

I would be interested to read your experiences in the Australian healthcare system and what costs you are talking about.

Give him a BJ and you'll be an expert in no time!

[Lucy]

Medicare. Ever heard of it - you don't get it until you become a citizen. Medicine and doctors cost money. Dentists cost money etc.

Not the NHS subsidised kind either, big chunks of cash. Then when you got it you still have to pay something when you visit a doctor, or dentist etc.

You only pay at the point of service if you are not on welfare, you only contribute via tax levy when you earn AUD100 000+.

Cost to see a doctor around AUD40-60, dentist check up is AUD80 - hardly wads of cash.

Many people have private health cover circa AUD150 per month means you are fully covered for just about anything, private hospital, dental etc I have experience the private system in Australia and it is excellent.

The doctors I have seen in Australia would wipe the floor with the doctors I have seen here. Here doctors are more like civil servants - getting paid nomatter what they 'produce'. My most recent misdiagnosis is more proof. The doctor I had in London couldn't even read the results of an ECG I had!

The standards in Australia are the reason I went to hospital there and why, when I go there I see one of the best dentists I've ever been to. The Harley Street dentist I saw here cracked my tooth, completed fecked up my root canal and charged my fund over £1000 for the pleasure.

Re the US - my partner's manager has cancer, he travels to the US for his treatment! He is american, but has lived here for over 20 years, I think that he is willing to travel so far when he is so ill speaks volumes for their quality of care.

[Churchill]

You only pay at the point of service if you are not on welfare, you only contribute via tax levy when you earn AUD100 000+.

Cost to see a doctor around AUD40-60, dentist check up is AUD80 - hardly wads of cash.

Many people have private health cover circa AUD150 per month means you are fully covered for just about anything, private hospital, dental etc I have experience the private system in Australia and it is excellent.

The doctors I have seen in Australia would wipe the floor with the doctors I have seen here. Here doctors are more like civil servants - getting paid nomatter what they 'produce'. My most recent misdiagnosis is more proof. The doctor I had in London couldn't even read the results of an ECG I had!

The standards in Australia are the reason I went to hospital there and why, when I go there I see one of the best dentists I've ever been to. The Harley Street dentist I saw here cracked my tooth, completed fliped up my root canal and charged my fund over £1000 for the pleasure.

Re the US - my partner's manager has cancer, he travels to the US for his treatment! He is american, but has lived here for over 20 years, I think that he is willing to travel so far when he is so ill speaks volumes for their quality of care.

See!

It works!

Bloody hell, that was quick.

Have you flossed?