ATW's 10 points plan to solve the global financial crisis

[Marina]

No. Western prosperity was build on freedoms that allowed industrial revolution to take place - clever machines that were worth a lot of money, that's what made the West so influential and successful.

Yes, and being ex-blacksmiths and potters and so on, the guys who designed the first "clever machines" and planned the mills and factories and build the railways and canals wouldn't have got far if there hadn't been rich landowners and investors to lend them money at interest (which they wouldn't have been allowed to do in an Islamic country BTW).

[bogeyman]

It turns out USA disagrees - they sure have had the most free market environment as it gets (Wild West etc) - anti-monopoly laws date back almost a century in the USA now, it's a fact of the matter that regulation of monopolies is essential to ensure free market actually exists - otherwise monopolies turn out this market into anything but free.

But of course you and sadguru are okay with monopolies being "free" to stiffle competition in this "free" market? Yes or No.

Why this association with me and SG? Are you Lucy?

[sasguru]

No. Western prosperity was build on freedoms that allowed industrial revolution to take place - clever machines that were worth a lot of money, that's what made the West so influential and successful.

Debt is a big step backwards - it is a short term solution that will blow in your face fairly quickly. This is what lead to outsourcing to China, India etc - this kind of behavior should have been limited in the first place, especially providing backwards countries with advanced weapons.

You really are stupid and/or ignorant aren't you?
The voyages of discovery in Portugal, Spain, England and Holland were financed by speculation.
The factories, railways, housing, colonial conquests of the industrial revolution were financed by speculation.
Every major invention form the combustion engine to the airplane has relied on speculation to finance and develop the product.

You are a cretin of the first order.

[bogeyman]

You are a cretin of the first order.

Tis true.

And you are me, apparently

[AtW]

Yes, and being ex-blacksmiths and potters and so on, the guys who designed the first "clever machines" and planned the mills and factories and build the railways and canals wouldn't have got far if there hadn't been rich landowners and investors to lend them money at interest (which they wouldn't have been allowed to do in an Islamic country BTW).

I am not against INVESTMENT - long term investment into building factories or railways, that's fine by me. It can and should be very profitable.

What I am against is that short term speculation becomes more profitable than long term investment - taxation should ensure that this is never the case, and certainly people who speculate should not be able to materially affect markets - if Soros was put in prison for 50 years for his actions then less currency attacks like that would have happened. It's market manipulation and it should be cracked down upon.

[AtW]

The factories, railways, housing, colonial conquests of the industrial revolution were financed by speculation.

These were long term investments. They had a high chance of failure, but in case of success high rate of revenue. That's fine.

What is not fine is buying and selling shares every day to make money on pushing them down only to buy them back - shares that banks and hedge funds often don't even own, they "borrow" them. This is speculation and it should be stamped out completely - those guys are fking up the markets to get their bonus - what they should get instead is a long term jail sentence.

[bogeyman]

It's market manipulation and it should be cracked down upon.

Oh go and ferk yourself!!!

What else are you in favour of 'cracking down on' exactly ?

What books would you burn if you could?

Democracy? You don't have a clue, do you?

[AtW]

What books would you burn if you could?

"War and Peace" - I had to make an essay about in school and had to cheat

[Marina]

What I am against is that short term speculation becomes more profitable than long term investment

That's like saying "I'm not against rivers, but mountain streams should be banned!"

These days, one feeds into the other through workings of the market. People, even the little guys, are free to invest either long term or, if they think they can gain by it, dabble short term.

I'm not an economist BTW. I know less about economics than a warthog knows about quantum mechanics. But finally I've met someone who knows even less!

[sasguru]

Democracy? You don't have a clue, do you?

Obviously Labour's "tests" for new immigrants don't deal with the basics. Mind you if you are dealing with a lifetime of communist brain-washing applied to someone with limited intelligence, it would be a lost cause anyway.