At 40+ you are pretty much unemployable

[Churchill]

Is that in any way true for contractors? I assume not.

It worries me when permie job ads say "senior software engineer, 5 years experience". Obviously they're expecting someone who's 26, not 36 like me.

But that's permiedom. For contractors, I don't think it matters, and the issue of younger managers doesn't matter either.

Will someone explain to me how anyone can claim to be a "Senior Software Engineer" with only 5 years experience?

[DieScum]

It's all about attitude.

Unfortunately the older someone is the more likely they are to have a poor attitude in my experience. Although I restrict that pretty much to permies.

I was teaching a certification bootcamp once known for being particularly difficult. Four days class then exam on the Friday.

Out of the minority who passed we had the guys with a lot of experience in it and then we had one 21 year old fresh from uni who actually bothered to out the work in. He listened attentively and read in the evening. You could see the page markers and highlighting in his manual. He just had a great attitude to do what needed to be done rather than have an easy life.

Similar thing with another guy I know in his fifties. Has a great problem solving attitude and you would never really comment on his age.

All about attitude.

[xoggoth]

My sister is pushing 70 and is always being offered bits of work, depends on your energy, ability and enthusiasm. And luck. I never suffer from enthusiasm myself but last two contracts arrived out of the blue when I could not really be arsed looking and I am over... (30).

[bogeyman]

Surely the IT boom only happened in the mid 80's when PCs become readily available. Uni numbers in IT rocketed. The first main wave of grads after that would now be in their early 40's with nobody above them other than mainframe dudes. So, in 10 years time there will be lots of programmers in their 40's.

No it didn't. Demand for IT skills was massive in the late 70s and early 80s.

The arrival of PCs dumbed down the market considerably. Every manager and business owner thought that if they could have a functioning computer on their desk, and manage to cack-handedly use a spreadsheet then all this IT nonsense couldn't be that hard.

Before the PC mentality took hold, you actually had to know what you were doing. Since then, the industry has become flooded with blaggers, shysters and 'Teach Yourself X in 24 hours' types.

Is it any wonder that large IT project overrun/under-perform/fail?

Even mainframe systems guys these days (I won't call them Sysprogs 'cause most of them are not worthy of the appellation) don't even have to know assembler or edit 'parmlib'.

[BrilloPad]

It's all about attitude.

Unfortunately the older someone is the more likely they are to have a poor attitude in my experience. Although I restrict that pretty much to permies.

I was teaching a certification bootcamp once known for being particularly difficult. Four days class then exam on the Friday.

Out of the minority who passed we had the guys with a lot of experience in it and then we had one 21 year old fresh from uni who actually bothered to out the work in. He listened attentively and read in the evening. You could see the page markers and highlighting in his manual. He just had a great attitude to do what needed to be done rather than have an easy life.

Similar thing with another guy I know in his fifties. Has a great problem solving attitude and you would never really comment on his age.

All about attitude.

Agreed. At ClienctCo they always say they look for contractors who care.

Relative to the permies here that is not difficult.

[BrilloPad]

No it didn't. Demand for IT skills was massive in the late 70s and early 80s.

The arrival of PCs dumbed down the market considerably. Every manager and business owner thought that if they could have a functioning computer on their desk, and manage to cack-handedly use a spreadsheet then all this IT nonsense couldn't be that hard.

Before the PC mentality took hold, you actually had to know what you were doing. Since then, the industry has become flooded with blaggers, shysters and 'Teach Yourself X in 24 hours' types.

Is it any wonder that large IT project overrun/under-perform/fail?

Even mainframe systems guys these days (I won't call them Sysprogs 'cause most of them are not worthy of the appellation) don't even have to know assembler or edit 'parmlib'.

I worked alot of PDPs in the late 80s - and it is was full of blaggers and shysters. One BA copied out the stock exchange manual as a spec - was intolerably racist (interestingly he got on well with all English of any extraction - but he hated any immigrants from oz, nz, etcetc) to the point where , when he lost his legs in a train crash, 90% said "good". Then there were the contractors who were drunk every afternoon or spend the hours reading the paper or just mess up the systems.

I always felt I could do a better job than them and earn there money. Thank goodness that contractors are alot more professional these days.

[darmstadt]

Even mainframe systems guys these days (I won't call them Sysprogs 'cause most of them are not worthy of the appellation) don't even have to know assembler or edit 'parmlib'.

LNKLST UNDEFINE NAME(LNKZZ)
LNKLST DEFINE NAME(LNKZZ) COPYFROM(CURRENT)
LNKLST ACTIVATE NAME(LNKZZ)
LNKLST UPDATE JOB=*
LNKLST UNDEFINE NAME($##$01)
LNKLST UNDEFINE NAME(LNK01)
LNKLST DEFINE NAME($##$01) COPYFROM(CURRENT)
LNKLST DELETE NAME($##$01) DSN(SATEST.INSTALL.V320.A05.SINGMOD1)
LNKLST DELETE NAME($##$01) DSN(SATEST.INSTALL.V320.A05.SINGMOD2)
LNKLST DELETE NAME($##$01) DSN(SATEST.INSTALL.V320.A05.SINGMOD3)
LNKLST ADD NAME($##$01) DSN(SATEST.INSTALL.V320.A05.SINGMOD1) ATTOP
LNKLST ADD NAME($##$01) DSN(SATEST.INSTALL.V320.A05.SINGMOD2) ATTOP
LNKLST ADD NAME($##$01) DSN(SATEST.INSTALL.V320.A05.SINGMOD3) ATTOP
LNKLST ACTIVATE NAME($##$01)
LNKLST UPDATE JOB=*
LNKLST UNDEFINE NAME(LNKZZ)

Okay for you?

[expat]

Will someone explain to me how anyone can claim to be a "Senior Software Engineer" with only 5 years experience?

I once had an agent tell me straight-faced that he'd put anyone with more than 6 months' experience in Siebel in as a "senior consultant".

[expat]

Okay for you?

I usually just ask people to tell me what IEFBR15 (sic) does.

[Churchill]

I once had an agent tell me straight-faced that he'd put anyone with more than 6 months' experience in Siebel in as a "senior consultant".

My PG-Tips Monkey could write that crap!