Well Britain's Iraq war is ending now. Who won?

[Pickle2]

So the regime of Saddam Hussein's is what you call "normal" is it? I suppose to a Greek it would be.

Saddam Hussien liked back door action!?!?

[Bagpuss]

Just as you are airbrushing out all the other political dynamics of the middle east of the last fifty years.

I'm not airbrushing out anything. What I am saying is... it is not genuine to retrospectively condemn something you were happily complicit in and then use that as a moral justification for something entirely different. If Saddam were a war criminal then the USA government et al should have been tried as accessories

[wendigo100]

I'm not airbrushing out anything. What I am saying is... it is not genuine to retrospectively condemn something you were happily complicit in and then use that as a moral justification for something entirely different. If Saddam were a war criminal then the USA government et al should have been tried as accessories

He was hung because of those WMDs, which are still hidden but we'll find them.

[Mailman]

I'm not airbrushing out anything. What I am saying is... it is not genuine to retrospectively condemn something you were happily complicit in and then use that as a moral justification for something entirely different. If Saddam were a war criminal then the USA government et al should have been tried as accessories

Again you completely airbrush out the political context of the middle east in your little hate'n rant of Uncle Sam.

Mailman

[Bagpuss]

Again you completely airbrush out the political context of the middle east in your little hate'n rant of Uncle Sam.

Mailman

Nothing to add then?

[DodgyAgent]

I'm not airbrushing out anything. What I am saying is... it is not genuine to retrospectively condemn something you were happily complicit in and then use that as a moral justification for something entirely different. If Saddam were a war criminal then the USA government et al should have been tried as accessories

The difference is that you are applying the laws of hindsight very selectivly. The dynamics of the middle east may well have been such that the balance of peace was maintained by bribery corruption and many other forms of diplomacy that you and I would have no knowledge of. The fact that it ended up with a war may have been because the "peaceful" initiatives were no longer viable.

To crudely cherry pick on the USA when there were and are many awkward b**tards out there with considerable personal agendas with no accountability to democratic processes, and with so much wealth at stake is not exactly giving any balance to what has happened in the middle east.

The uSA is such an easy target for the cowards who dare not criticise some of the totalitarian regimes out there. And whilst the USA may be culpable in many ways only a fool or a guilt ridden idiot with their own personal agenda, would lay more than some of the blame on their doorstep.

[Mailman]

Nothing to add then?

Lots to add, but as you cant force a horse to drink at the water well, well I cant force a fool to read what he doesnt want to read

Anyways, Dodgy pretty much got it in one.

Mailman

[sasguru]

I think todays Panorama gives a good insight into the reality.
And God help me, I agree with Baggy again. The truth is the truth, after all.

[Lambros]

back here, it has to be seen as a propaganda victory for an Imperialistic establishment, because they've managed to keep control of the mass media agenda throughout, even through:

two sets of lying and deceiving "Iraq WMD dossiers"
ALMOST every UK lawyer saying a war would probably be illegal
shock and awe pictures on every TV showing Baghdad in flames
highly misleading pictures shoeing the fall of Saddam statue
the emerging evidence of sexing up intelligence and consequent death of Dr Kelly front-page pictures of UK soldiers urinating on an Iraqi
the destruction of Fallujah as a 2004 election victory present from Bush
the facade of fair and democratic elections in Iraq
getting away with bringing in tough legislation after 7/7 without any media acceptance that this was a direct result of invading Iraq
AND THIS LIST IS OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD!

However, it is not an overall victory for an Imperialist establishment, because the antiwar movement is still there, the public are MUCH less likely to believe a word of what the government says, and the 18-24 age range are now so cynical that most are refusing (or can't be bothered) to vote.

[lilelvis2000]

Don't forget the complete detruction of the economy and infrastructure and social services by the US governer of Iraq. This was shock therapy worse than what was done in Russia..and we have seen Russia going back towards the communists recently. The creation of a false democracy in Iraq. It is entirely a puppet regime, with no connection what so ever with the general population - kinda like Egypt.

This was on a loser from the start. Invaders with a different relegion, no knowledge of the cultures and relegious clashes between sunni and shia. No idea about the long term hatred between clans. Dissafection of the population due the economic "reforms". Zero post-war planning. The Brits should have done better with all our colonial experience.

'Course back then the natives usually couldn't shoot back...