Back to coding

[SandyDown]

...aha sounds like J2EE

yes it was BB but I can handle J2EE easily its all that unix ladi dah... how's it going btw? remember when I was in Germany and I kept complaining about them unix Vi crzed techies I worked with, that was my last techie work

[shoes]

Is it possible to go back to being a coder after almost 3 years away from any coding(been doing la di da BA work? )

Don't do it. Coding is a thankless task and is hundreds of times more complex than anything you have to do at any other point in the chain. With so much to get right and so many numpties in the workplace most things will be done wrong, which will feck you right up. You will be blamed for poor decisions that were made weeks before you arrived on the site, as they will only become apparent once the coding starts. Forget it. Stick to a better paid non-technology specific bullcrap BA role where all you have to do is slag off the developers and talk crap.

[SandyDown]

Stick to a better paid non-technology specific bullcrap BA role where all you have to do is slag off the developers and talk crap.

I have a feeling am going to make lots of enemy for saying this, but its amazing how alll ITers (especially infrastructure/architecture ...all non business related) look like complete arseholes in each meeting to agree specs... you give the specs to someone and they say 'it can't be done' huh?? I used to be a developer and I know it can be done, what they mean is they can't be bothered to do it - even agreeing specs for installing a scanner takes about 3 weeks worth of meetings till bludy IT gets off their arses and order a scanner!! I don't understand it, when I was in dev I got on with the techies sooooo well, now am on the other side I rarely see any techie who is not a complete arsehole, do they deliberately try to give such a negtive image??

[Moscow Mule]

do they deliberately try to give such a negtive image??

yes - they are all lazy cnvts.

[shoes]

I have a feeling am going to make lots of enemy for saying this, but its amazing how alll ITers (especially infrastructure/architecture ...all non business related) look like complete arseholes in each meeting to agree specs... you give the specs to someone and they say 'it can't be done' huh?? I used to be a developer and I know it can be done, what they mean is they can't be bothered to do it - even agreeing specs for installing a scanner takes about 3 weeks worth of meetings till bludy IT gets off their arses and order a scanner!! I don't understand it, when I was in dev I got on with the techies sooooo well, now am on the other side I rarely see any techie who is not a complete arsehole, do they deliberately try to give such a negtive image??

I think they resent being 'told what to do' by people they think are not as smart as them. Also it might be true that what is asked for CAN actually be done, but often their are constraints on what is possible largely due to the existing code and architecture in the application you want changing. Ive never worked on an application where what was going on under the hood wasn't an utter mess. It is often the case that a change that on the surface looks very straight forward is actually incredibly difficult and work intensive to get done due to having to integrate it with the crap thats already there. Most permie developers don't want to be concentrating so hard on a task that blood is coming out of their ears for a meagre salary because someone who they think is dimmer than them and who works half the hours they do thinks a change is necessary when they think they know it isn't. They feel underappreciated for how hard their jobs are, and they have a point. Its very very hard to do right in most of the circumstances you find yourself in and all you get is grief for your efforts. Avoid it. Seriously.

[SandyDown]

I think they resent being 'told what to do' by people they think are not as smart as them. Also it might be true that what is asked for CAN actually be done, but often their are constraints on what is possible largely due to the existing code and architecture in the application you want changing. Ive never worked on an application where what was going on under the hood wasn't an utter mess. It is often the case that a change that on the surface looks very straight forward is actually incredibly difficult and work intensive to get done due to having to integrate it with the crap thats already there. Most permie developers don't want to be concentrating so hard on a task that blood is coming out of their ears for a meagre salary because someone who they think is dimmer than them and who works half the hours they do thinks a change is necessary when they think they know it isn't. They feel underappreciated for how hard their jobs are, and they have a point. Its very very hard to do right in most of the circumstances you find yourself in and all you get is grief for your efforts. Avoid it. Seriously.

<< sorry for being such a lazy quoter - who was it who complained about the quoting?/>>

anyho, I understand IT related constraints, in most my roles I am supposed to interface between IT and business, so when I give a requirement or request for change to and ITers, I expect them to give and objective and intelligent case of benefits and disadvantages of meeting the requirements so that we can go back to the business and put together a business case for rejecting the requirement and perhaps with a second/third options and workarounds....

I can never understand why do coders think they are more intelligent than all those business types with 6 figure salaries and over 100% bonuses? anyone else know whyand where is this idea that they are the bees knees comes from?? even the coders straight from India seem to think they are better than all these business types ?

[Sysman]

And for those of us who developed on VAX/VMS, editing in edt not tpu/eve.

Christ, now I'm getting geeky (though no chance of beating zeity).

Nope. TECO was the real programmer's choice on VAX/VMS.

[Cowboy Bob]

I can never understand why do coders think they are more intelligent than all those business types with 6 figure salaries and over 100% bonuses? anyone else know whyand where is this idea that they are the bees knees comes from?? even the coders straight from India seem to think they are better than all these business types ?

That's simply because we are

[Francko]

anyho, I understand IT related constraints, in most my roles I am supposed to interface between IT and business, so when I give a requirement or request for change to and ITers, I expect them to give and objective and intelligent case of benefits and disadvantages of meeting the requirements so that we can go back to the business and put together a business case for rejecting the requirement and perhaps with a second/third options and workarounds....

I can never understand why do coders think they are more intelligent than all those business types with 6 figure salaries and over 100% bonuses? anyone else know whyand where is this idea that they are the bees knees comes from?? even the coders straight from India seem to think they are better than all these business types ?

You have been a bit contradictory now with what you said initially and now. First you said that a technical activity such as coding is incredibly time consuming, difficult and tiring. And now you are claiming what right do they have to believe to feel more intelligent? The reason is because you need to be very intelligent to succeed in a technical position and obviously in business too with the exception that in the first there is very little space for the middle ranges. Either you are good or you are bad. There is not much space for mediocrity. Business positions instead have a wide range of mediocre skills, simply because most tasks can be satisfactorily performed based on what everybody has learned at primary school, such as the ability of writing, talking, reading, etc. Sure you can spot a difference with the good ones but the mediocre can be good enough. In a technical activity you can't get away with what you have learned at school but it's all new learning and requires continuous training.

Having said that you speak of their attitude but to me it looks like the attitude is on your side. From the way you start prejudicing them as code monkeys and waving in front of them your knowledge of business and the fact that you consider this position as an evolution, you are obviously not going to attract their attention and get the best of it. I am managing a team in India who was known not to bring the best results so far. It is incredible how the right approach can change the attitude of everybody. Now they are very productive and we received a lot of appraisals from the management. I have business knowledge too, in the last years I have spent more time with business analysts and managers more than with techies. But I have never lost touch with the technology and never will. I do talk to them, I respect what they do, I understand what is difficult and what is not, I can sit down with them and understand if they have a problem and sometimes if they can't do it I can even do it myself (and this gains a lot of point of respect from them). I can also talk to business guys without any disrespect (well, ok, sometimes happen but not often) and I always try to defend and justify what technical people are doing and what the problems are and I never indulged in accepting the monkey point of view that some managers have. On the other hand you must also be able to expose the business issues with the techies, but again never by patronising them and telling them that the "smart guys" with 6 figures salaries must be right because they earn more than you (besides many contractors make just the same money if not more). I do feel that in the moment you start erecting a wall in front of you and separate the line with them, you are not going to get anything out of them.

[SandyDown]

Franko:

1- I gree attitude is everything, am all smiles, bring chocolate and cookies to any meeting with ITers, I can speak their lingo and I win them every time, they do respect me for it, but that doesn't deny the fact that they act like arseholes towards others, and they do need a lot of ego massaging.

2- Are you a coder or an Architect?? for the last few years you have been bragging that you are an architect, do you classify managing a team and drawing few diagrams with arrows from one box to another as technical?? I bet you haven't done a line of code since you were contractor last (I think that was around 2000?? but that's not to put you down or anything, as I said before some of my best friends are architects - but frankly I think IT architecture is a glorified system analysis