Reply to: Back to coding

[Francko]

Would someone mind decoding this tulipe for me?

Let it go. Anything that involves more than two sentences bound together is already too difficult for your limited brain capacity. Stick with monosyllable commands. At least they are in line with your language skills.

[Churchill]

That's not even totally fair either. Managing well or understanding the business requirements is very difficult. Just as writing, all of us can write but only a few can write a book worth reading. All the respect to the ones who do their job properly. Certainly I don't share the view that they deserve a higher place up the chain. However they do certainly deserve the respect of doing a job well done and you cannot say that you would do the same in 5% of your time.

Salaries and money cannot be used as an indication for your worth in the productive chain. Otherwise we would have to admit that Beckham is 1000 times more important than a brain surgeon who saves hundreds of lives which is clearly not true.

Would someone mind decoding this tulipe for me?

[Francko]

This is the main point - well made. Coders can do your job using 5% of the ability they use for their day to day activities. Why a 'management' position is seen as 'higher' or an evolution in my view is a relic from an industrial past.

That's not even totally fair either. Managing well or understanding the business requirements is very difficult. Just as writing, all of us can write but only a few can write a book worth reading. All the respect to the ones who do their job properly. Certainly I don't share the view that they deserve a higher place up the chain. However they do certainly deserve the respect of doing a job well done and you cannot say that you would do the same in 5% of your time.

Salaries and money cannot be used as an indication for your worth in the productive chain. Otherwise we would have to admit that Beckham is 1000 times more important than a brain surgeon who saves hundreds of lives which is clearly not true.

[Churchill]

Obviously shouldn't be a code monkey.

Now, where is my arse?

It won't be difficult to find, it resembling a baboons.

[OrangeHopper]

That was diplomatic!

Obviously shouldn't be a code monkey.

Now, where is my arse?

[DBA_bloke]

... they can't be bothered they are way up their own arses to do it ...

Careful Sandy. Bit strong that. Not everyone is eloquent and quick witted enough to do what you say you can do. I'm certainly not. I have recognised this and have therefore chosen to remain a techie. I will happily fire-fight projects but I chose not to manage. I have every respect for those that can and, at the same time, maintain the respect of the technical staff.

That was diplomatic!

[OrangeHopper]

... they can't be bothered they are way up their own arses to do it ...

Careful Sandy. Bit strong that. Not everyone is eloquent and quick witted enough to do what you say you can do. I'm certainly not. I have recognised this and have therefore chosen to remain a techie. I will happily fire-fight projects but I chose not to manage. I have every respect for those that can and, at the same time, maintain the respect of the technical staff.

[DBA_bloke]

As usual you look at the end product of a BA and think, huh I could do a word document and PP too, in 5% of the time,

Not only could a Coder do it in 5% of the time, but it'd actually all work properly, too. Always a bonus. I've known ONE BA who knew his stuff - and he, sadly, had to go back to India. While he was with us, projects whizzed along and worked! Guess what? He was an accomplished coder, too. So there! Ha!

[sasguru]

Most IT people have a high IQ and low EQ.
Most managers are the opposite.
I have both.
HTH

[shoes]

Not in 5% of the time, using 5% of the intellectual capacity. And I don't care either, I do my time and invoice, Im not in it to win a geek contest. Im trying to point out why those developers you work with have a low opinion of you. Im also trying to help you by pointing out you have the sweetest deal - what you do is relatively easy no matter how impressive you try and make it sound, and your rates are probably higher than a coder. Enjoy it! You wouldn't want to be on the other side of the fence dealing with people like you!

[SandyDown]

As usual you look at the end product of a BA and think, huh I could do a word document and PP too, in 5% of the time, but they don't know what it took to get the work completed??
They don't know how much running, talking and meetings it took to extract the information get it reviewed by 20 people and changing it 50 times to keep everyone happy, before these work products are completed and handed to them on a silver plater stating every little darn thing the coders needs to do, and still they get it wrong, and constantly phone to ask questions .

Can coders sit in stakeholders' meetings and convince programme directors to adopt a strategy/methodology? can they convince them why they need to spend a few millions on making a change? Can they gain sign off from various arsehole workstream leaders based in different parts of the world, can they chase numerous people and explain over and over the necessity of resolving issues and reviewing specs?

The answer is mostly no, and that's not because they are not intelligent enough to do it, but because they can't be bothered they are way up their own arses to do it, and the end of the day who gets the visibility, who gets to be well known with top CEOs and major stakeholders?? not the coder who is sitting in a dark corner in front of his black screen thinking to himself woooooohoo am so clever I can edit XML in vi !!!


Sheesh I never really meant for this thread to be another stupid pissing match ... but hey we all got to make a living and at this moment, I fecking don't care if a coder pretend coder think they are smart cuz they spend most day trying to decipher his/her predecessor’s code ... who iffing cares as long as I get to invoice I don't care!!

[shoes]

you need to be very intelligent to succeed in a technical position and obviously in business too with the exception that in the first there is very little space for the middle ranges. Either you are good or you are bad. There is not much space for mediocrity. Business positions instead have a wide range of mediocre skills, simply because most tasks can be satisfactorily performed based on what everybody has learned at primary school, such as the ability of writing, talking, reading, etc. Sure you can spot a difference with the good ones but the mediocre can be good enough. In a technical activity you can't get away with what you have learned at school but it's all new learning and requires continuous training.

This is the main point - well made. Coders can do your job using 5% of the ability they use for their day to day activities. Why a 'management' position is seen as 'higher' or an evolution in my view is a relic from an industrial past. Those operating the machinery were seen as an extension to that machinery, with a per hour cost like that of the machine and an end product you can sell being produced. Those managing the machines and their operators were a step up the chain, because who wants to be the guy getting greasy and operating the knobs all day in the noisy workshop. You want to be wearing the suit and working in the nice office telling the others what to do. That used to be the hard bit. This is now on its head, with those operating the machinery needing much more skill and intellect than those organising who is doing what and when. Attitudes towards both groups of workers have yet to evolve. The 'operators' are aware this is an issue, the 'higher up' people are not.

It's hard work and it's without any thanks or recognition. Enjoy the current topsy-turvy circumstances while they are still here, don't make a move into coding!

[Francko]

2- Are you a coder or an Architect?? for the last few years you have been bragging that you are an architect, do you classify managing a team and drawing few diagrams with arrows from one box to another as technical?? I bet you haven't done a line of code since you were contractor last (I think that was around 2000?? but that's not to put you down or anything, as I said before some of my best friends are architects - but frankly I think IT architecture is a glorified system analysis

I can still do coding but doesn't take longer than 5-10% of the full time. But still you can learn, study, help developers on some issues, review the code, etc. And no I have never been a "powerpoint" architect. Architecture is about analysis, of course. I yet don't see the point of these barricades....

[SandyDown]

Franko:

1- I gree attitude is everything, am all smiles, bring chocolate and cookies to any meeting with ITers, I can speak their lingo and I win them every time, they do respect me for it, but that doesn't deny the fact that they act like arseholes towards others, and they do need a lot of ego massaging.

2- Are you a coder or an Architect?? for the last few years you have been bragging that you are an architect, do you classify managing a team and drawing few diagrams with arrows from one box to another as technical?? I bet you haven't done a line of code since you were contractor last (I think that was around 2000?? but that's not to put you down or anything, as I said before some of my best friends are architects - but frankly I think IT architecture is a glorified system analysis

[Francko]

anyho, I understand IT related constraints, in most my roles I am supposed to interface between IT and business, so when I give a requirement or request for change to and ITers, I expect them to give and objective and intelligent case of benefits and disadvantages of meeting the requirements so that we can go back to the business and put together a business case for rejecting the requirement and perhaps with a second/third options and workarounds....

I can never understand why do coders think they are more intelligent than all those business types with 6 figure salaries and over 100% bonuses? anyone else know whyand where is this idea that they are the bees knees comes from?? even the coders straight from India seem to think they are better than all these business types ?

You have been a bit contradictory now with what you said initially and now. First you said that a technical activity such as coding is incredibly time consuming, difficult and tiring. And now you are claiming what right do they have to believe to feel more intelligent? The reason is because you need to be very intelligent to succeed in a technical position and obviously in business too with the exception that in the first there is very little space for the middle ranges. Either you are good or you are bad. There is not much space for mediocrity. Business positions instead have a wide range of mediocre skills, simply because most tasks can be satisfactorily performed based on what everybody has learned at primary school, such as the ability of writing, talking, reading, etc. Sure you can spot a difference with the good ones but the mediocre can be good enough. In a technical activity you can't get away with what you have learned at school but it's all new learning and requires continuous training.

Having said that you speak of their attitude but to me it looks like the attitude is on your side. From the way you start prejudicing them as code monkeys and waving in front of them your knowledge of business and the fact that you consider this position as an evolution, you are obviously not going to attract their attention and get the best of it. I am managing a team in India who was known not to bring the best results so far. It is incredible how the right approach can change the attitude of everybody. Now they are very productive and we received a lot of appraisals from the management. I have business knowledge too, in the last years I have spent more time with business analysts and managers more than with techies. But I have never lost touch with the technology and never will. I do talk to them, I respect what they do, I understand what is difficult and what is not, I can sit down with them and understand if they have a problem and sometimes if they can't do it I can even do it myself (and this gains a lot of point of respect from them). I can also talk to business guys without any disrespect (well, ok, sometimes happen but not often) and I always try to defend and justify what technical people are doing and what the problems are and I never indulged in accepting the monkey point of view that some managers have. On the other hand you must also be able to expose the business issues with the techies, but again never by patronising them and telling them that the "smart guys" with 6 figures salaries must be right because they earn more than you (besides many contractors make just the same money if not more). I do feel that in the moment you start erecting a wall in front of you and separate the line with them, you are not going to get anything out of them.