Dodgy is moonlighting as a journo

[Bagpuss]

I think it's more simple than you think. Give people there sense of worth back, remove the higher level state benefits and people will be forced to find work. When they mix with people with higher morals they will start to demand better things for themselves and their kids. Give people a helping hand by removing tax on income up to 10k. The underclass aren't (on the whole) inherently bad people they are just stuck in a rut. The likes of the murderer of the 11 year old are a red herring.

[Lucy]

Speaking of logic wasn't it you who said the UK was the worst place to live.
Women eh? They never make any sense.

Nothing I have said contradicts this.

You read but you don't understand.

Strangely Single SAS.

[Gibbon]

Traditional communities/families have gone the same way as the traditional jobs that sustained those families.

Anyway, when was this utopia ???

[DodgyAgent]

We've had this conversation already. Perhaps you should check your facts.

Citroen-Peugeot and Renault are world class in anyone's book. Renault basically owns Nissan. They employ 1000s and make a profit. Beats Morgan and TVR I think you'll agree.

Aviation - Airbus is pan European.
France also has the capability to make it's own fighters and luxury business aircraft, Dassault and Mirage. We lost this capability in the 70s, although I agree we still lead in large jet engines.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/aviation.html?L=1
http://www.reims-aviation-industries.com/reimsavb.htm

France is yesterdays economy. It has indeed got a good number of "world class" companies, but behind that it relies on protectionism and a sense of civic duty who's backbone is based on National Pride. There is very high unemployment in France and no opportunities for the have nots whatsoever. The problem is that the middle and ruling classes do not feel the pinch.

France attracts very little investment from overseas so there is little chance of it creating more jobs. It is hardly a paragon of virtue as it is filled with racism, cronyism and protection of its ruling classes that makes Thatcher look like Tony Benn in comparison.

Frances great strength is that it manipulates the EU so well, ensuring EU money (farm subsidies) is poured into it (airbus eurofighter) to support its inward looking society. The UK now has far more foreign investment, a bigger economy, and lower unemployment than france, and our banks are open for longer hours and our professional workers do not all go home for lunch.

[sasguru]

France is yesterdays economy. It has indeed got a good number of "world class" companies, but behind that it relies on protectionism and a sense of civic duty who's backbone is based on National Pride. There is very high unemployment in France and no opportunities for the have nots whatsoever. The problem is that the middle and ruling classes do not feel the pinch.

France attracts very little investment from overseas so there is little chance of it creating more jobs. It is hardly a paragon of virtue as it is filled with racism, cronyism and protection of its ruling classes that makes Thatcher look like Tony Benn in comparison.

Frances great strength is that it manipulates the EU so well, ensuring EU money (farm subsidies) is poured into it (airbus eurofighter) to support its inward looking society. The UK now has far more foreign investment, a bigger economy, and lower unemployment than france, and our banks are open for longer hours and our professional workers do not all go home for lunch.

All of the above is are the tired cliches recited ad nauseum from various right-wings rags. They say much the same about Germany. Is Germany yesterday's economy too?

[DodgyAgent]

All of the above is are the tired cliches recited ad nauseum from various right-wings rags. They say much the same about Germany. Is Germany yesterday's economy too?

What is tired is your idleness/cowardice in countering the points. I hardly think that 9.5% unemployment is a cliche. France is the most beautiful country on this planet (that is a cliche), and if it can sustain the status quo of supporting a huge rural (inefficient) farming based society and a political system that keeps so many people out of work then fine. But as soon as France opens its door to Polish plumbers, an end to the CAP and the free flow of foreign investment it will change. Whether that is a good or bad thing for France is open to debate. But I certainly will not accept it or its people (remember London is its 3rd largest city) are any sort of example that we should follow.

[DodgyAgent]

. But I certainly will not accept it or its people (remember London is its 3rd largest city) are any sort of example that we should follow.

Unless we wish to surrender to the Germans that is

[sasguru]

What is tired is your idleness/cowardice in countering the points. I hardly think that 9.5% unemployment is a cliche. France is the most beautiful country on this planet (that is a cliche), and if it can sustain the status quo of supporting a huge rural (inefficient) farming based society and a political system that keeps so many people out of work then fine. But as soon as France opens its door to Polish plumbers, an end to the CAP and the free flow of foreign investment it will change. Whether that is a good or bad thing for France is open to debate. But I certainly will not accept it or its people (remember London is its 3rd largest city) are any sort of example that we should follow.

Idleness/cowardice? Well actually I was trying to do some work.

And I concede that France has many problems. But they did something right in saving their manufacturing industry. The US protects its industry too, you know. We are the only fools who blindly followed the theories of the 80s academic free-market theorists.

But here are some random points:

1) Do you really believe the UKs unemployment rate is 5% - what about those on disability benefit, "students" doing waste-of-time courses etc. I suspect the real unemployment rate is much higher.
2) You mentioned the UK's bigger economy - is an economy based on credit sustainable? The jury is still out, but I suspect the next recession will be the most painful since the war, as the debt has to be unwound. That is the weakness of our economy, if protectionism is the French weakness.

As I say in the German thread, I admire the way they have worked themselves out of recession, not by borrowing money, but by creating and improving world class industries. So perhaps Germany is the country we should be comparing to.

[sunnysan]

Not sure

I was going to print this on the board myself but without saying who wrote it. You are quite right, I could not have put it better myself. What is interesting is that those who want to disagree with Heffers unpalatable "truth" prefer to dish him and the Telegraph rather than proffer any sort of reasoned counter debate.

I see SAS has gone the Thatcher route without explaining the link about how her policies create and sustain an underclass

Although I feel SH stinging crtiticism of welfare is valid, I feel the mistake he makes is to attribute the underlying social problems that spawned his anti welfare vitriol solely on the consequences of welfare.

To use South Africa and the US as examples, both have low levels of welfare support and high levels of crime including adolescent crime. I am sure there a more examples but I think that these two are enough to illustrate the point that welfare and its social consequences cannot solely be blamed for this kind of behavior.

Conversely the Scandinavian countries have high levels of welfare and relatively low crime especially wanton adolescent crime.

SH also alludes to stricter and more robust policing to resolve the issue. Again I think it is plain to see that if you look around the world, countries with high conviction rates and large prison populations do not have a lower incidence of crime. Stricter policing seems to be a consequence of higher crime but not a solution to it.

The causes of this kind of social maliase are caused by the society we live in. The police are supposed to b the agents of law and order, not the guardians of societies morals and firmer policing is not going to solve that.

I feel the answer lies in looking where people obtain their values from these days. I dont have the answer so I will end this rant with that question.

[Bagpuss]

The Breakdown of the family unit is at the core of this IMHO. In the late 70s 80s women began to forge their own careers, they realised as they became more financially independant, that they didn't have to stay with someone they no longer loved (as was common in previous generations). Divorce rates doubled in a couple of decades and children were the casualties. Even in dual income famalies the latch-key generation brought themselves up, dragged in some cases. Communities of neighbours became clusters of individuals. No parental guidance, no community guidance, therein lies the problem. In pursuit of wealth and happiness we have created a monster.