Clueless .....

[Burdock]

Well said Denny.

I am in the process of building my fledgling business...in time I hope to have all my clients from my own account. At the moment, I am skint, and need to build things up / pay the bills through EB supplied contract work. I can't afford to turn contract work down in order to cement cast my IR35 status. All I can do is pick the bones of contracts, and insert a few IR35 friendly clauses, pay for investigation insurance....and worry. It's a pain in arse, and totally unfair.

[threaded]

I believe all contractors fall under ir35 except those who work from home all the time.Otherwise everyone has to be in office, use client's computer, do the work assigned to him etc. We are all temps not a business.

So, in those terms, are not CSC, EDS, IBM consult, etc. etc. etc. also just temps and hence should only be allowed limited costs for accountancy fees etc. etc. I wouldn't mind if they were. But it is never going to happen as a level playing field would show just how much less expensive contractors are to these 'real' businesses.

[DodgyAgent]

It was probably on the EBs terms, not the clients necessarily. We never got that far.

Most EBs want a 9-5 working arrangement 5 days per week so that they can rake in their hike up regularly, not risk sporadic billing on projects completed that may miss out certain days or not be for full days - like a real business with multiple income streams - might operate.

That's why I still consider EBs for sourcing. Some EBs are compliant with my own terms and concede that I am a business, whereas the client won't. In other cases, it's vica versa.

In my discussion yesterday, it seemed apparent that Hays IT were pretty unconcilliatory in the way they operated. That's why they never had the chance of sourcing me for their client - even though they badly wanted to put me forward as I was the only candidate with the required experience(which is considerable) they have found so far. All I can say is this: if they wanted me that badly, they had a funny way of showing it.

NO BIZ = NO DEAL. Otherwise the contract is potentially worth considerably less than stated. What good is that to me?

The clients are not stupid if they did not want to employ people on this basis they would not do it. Conversely if contractors did not like these rules of engagement then they would not do it. Agents do not shape markets they respond to and facilitate them. You seem to be the revolutionary so come on offer the world your new ideas and better alternatives, otherwise, you know what to do.

[DodgyAgent]

That's why they never had the chance of sourcing me for their client - even though they badly wanted to put me forward as I was the only candidate with the required experience(which is considerable) they have found so far. All I can say is this: if they wanted me that badly, they had a funny way of showing it.

NO BIZ = NO DEAL. Otherwise the contract is potentially worth considerably less than stated. What good is that to me?

And what did you end up with in all this? SFA

They obviously did.nt want you that badly after all?

[threaded]

to luxuriate in whether or not to turn down the assignments they are offered whilst pretending to be entrepreneurial risk takers when they clearly aren't or are unwilling to be.

Now who is being foolish and arrogant?

Surely though: if one cannot predict ahead of time whether the tax man is going to investigate you, and what the outcome of such an investigation will be, and whether one can then argue successfully and to what extent against whatever charge is made on ones business, then that is a far higher entrepreneurial risk than any of the big consultancies ever ever ever take.

HTH

[rootsnall]

BTW my solution to IR35 was to choose a taxation system where the rules were written down.

I'm with you on this one. If we all have to cough up full NI then rates will adjust accordingly. We'll always undercut consultancies and there will always be a market for contractors unless its totally outlawed. It'll find its own pay level under whatever rules are in place. The problem at the moment is we have contractors on different tax regimes, full NI versus Ltd Co versus tax dodgers. The Indian's I'm working with are all on low UK salary with the rest paid tax free back home or offshore, its not legal but its the norm I think, I'd probably be doing the same in their shoes.

I'm happy to leave the business-like working practices to others.

[threaded]

We'll always undercut consultancies and there will always be a market for contractors unless its totally outlawed.

I disagree with the first part: my understanding of how the New Labour party is altering the taxation laws is to head towards a situation where the large consultancies are 'cheaper'. Yet, how is it paying the costs for 5, 6 or more people from a multinational company, which just happens to be a donor to the party, can be made cheaper than 1 person from a small local company is something I find sad and amusing in equal parts.

I agree with the second part: one person who knows what they're doing will always be in great demand, much more than a room full of lawyers arguing over a service level contract.

[ratewhore]

That's what I did when I was starting out Burdock.

The fact that you are still using agencies, EB's, call them what you will, suggests to me that your 'real business' is not doing too well. I have to agree with D-A - if you're that fecking good then go and sell your services like my friends and contacts who run 'real businesses' do day-to-day.

I respect your desire to be taken as a business proper. What I don't appreciate is your attitude, particularly towards the other posters on here who don't necessarily take your view.

[ratewhore]

Nothing wrong with that at all Den. That is to be admired. If you left it at that then great, but you don't, you come on here and denigrate people who don't take your view.

If you put as much effort into your business as you do into researching IR35 and trying to get everyone to dance to your tune then you'd probably be turning over a lot more with a few employees chucked in as well by now...

[DodgyAgent]

I think they did, but they were too rule bound to accommodate business-like working practices.

YOUR business-like working practices.