UK sex workers in 'dire and desperate' need amid coronavirus lockdown

[Old Greg]

Ah the apples=pears offensive.

Ask yourself this if so many men commit murder are you guilty of murder?

Only works in the court of public opinion!

Now where it is obvious that the setting is coercive (hence the taxi driver reference) you might have a point.

The need for prostitution won't go away so the most sensible thing is to legalise & regulate. That way you remove coercion by bringing it out in the open. Just use the gang master style legislation and living off immoral earnings to police it.

You've veered off course from what was quite an interesting conversation.

Your murder analogy is somewhat off course, because I am not talking about sex and consent in general, but within the very narrow constraints of sex workers, large numbers of whom are coerced and therefore unable to give valid consent. Sometimes it is not obvious that the setting is coercive. But it is always the case that there is a reasonable chance that the arrangement may be coercive.

Given this, there are two approaches to take: one is for it to be acceptable for a punter to assume that consent is valid; the other is for it to be unacceptable for a punter to assume that consent is valid. You seem to believe the former. I believe the latter. Fine, but don't go off on some apples / pears tangent.

[vetran]

You've veered off course from what was quite an interesting conversation.

Your murder analogy is somewhat off course, because I am not talking about sex and consent in general, but within the very narrow constraints of sex workers, large numbers of whom are coerced and therefore unable to give valid consent. Sometimes it is not obvious that the setting is coercive. But it is always the case that there is a reasonable chance that the arrangement may be coercive.

Given this, there are two approaches to take: one is for it to be acceptable for a punter to assume that consent is valid; the other is for it to be unacceptable for a punter to assume that consent is valid. You seem to believe the former. I believe the latter. Fine, but don't go off on some apples / pears tangent.

It is a fruit, its skin is green and red , it has white flesh, it has a stalk so it MUST be a pear! Can you see the hole in that thinking?

You are assuming guilt, the benchmark is "beyond reasonable doubt".

I am all for preventing coercion however your method would cause extortion, miscarriages of justice and acquittals. It also does nothing to resolve the the issue of the owners coercing. Just like drugs you have to get the pushers not the users. If you can move the users to methadone that is an improvement.

I would prefer "you went to an unlicensed brothel (you know because it didn't have the correct signs in reception) therefore you cannot assume consent. Oh by the way the owner is now in jail for human trafficking".

[Old Greg]

It is a fruit, its skin is green and red , it has white flesh, it has a stalk so it MUST be a pear! Can you see the hole in that thinking?

You are assuming guilt, the benchmark is "beyond reasonable doubt".

I am all for preventing coercion however your method would cause extortion, miscarriages of justice and acquittals. It also does nothing to resolve the the issue of the owners coercing. Just like drugs you have to get the pushers not the users. If you can move the users to methadone that is an improvement.

I would prefer "you went to an unlicensed brothel (you know because it didn't have the correct signs in reception) therefore you cannot assume consent. Oh by the way the owner is now in jail for human trafficking".

The let us agree to disagree.

[vetran]

The let us agree to disagree.

OK

interesting exchange thanks.

[caffeine man]

Do you not see how the conflation of these two situations ignores the exploitation element? Drugs and alcohol can be provided without the subjugation of the people providing the service; prostitution cannot.

Prostitution can be done without subjugation, since some women choose to do it. Take the example of a young women with no other skills to sell.

Example 1: She has the choice of working in Tescos for £8 an hour, or working as an escort for £150 an hour, advertised online. She chooses the latter as its very lucrative.

This example is useful as it removes a number of misconceptions
-prostitution is not always done under subjugation
-you don't always need a pimp
-it can be done legally
-it can be very lucrative

Example 2: She has the choice of working in Tescos for £8 an hour, or at a massage parlour, £50 per half hour. At the parlour , she can choose her own hours. It is also very lucrative, if she can get plenty of customers. Working here presents a moral issue, as it is technically illegal. But she decides to make some money regardless

-we should also remember that there are not enough minimum wage jobs to go round. It may not be possible to get the job at Tescos. It could well be done as an alternative to benefits.

-Some cheeky prostitutes may well stay on benefits AND rake in the money from prostitution.

-How many prostitutes bother to declare their cash in hand earnings? Again another significant perk if they are doing it tax free.

[KinooOrKinog]

Prostitution can be done without subjugation, since some women choose to do it. Take the example of a young women with no other skills to sell.

Example 1: She has the choice of working in Tescos for £8 an hour, or working as an escort for £150 an hour, advertised online. She chooses the latter as its very lucrative.

This example is useful as it removes a number of misconceptions
-prostitution is not always done under subjugation
-you don't always need a pimp
-it can be done legally
-it can be very lucrative

Example 2: She has the choice of working in Tescos for £8 an hour, or at a massage parlour, £50 per half hour. At the parlour , she can choose her own hours. It is also very lucrative, if she can get plenty of customers. Working here presents a moral issue, as it is technically illegal. But she decides to make some money regardless

-we should also remember that there are not enough minimum wage jobs to go round. It may not be possible to get the job at Tescos. It could well be done as an alternative to benefits.

-Some cheeky prostitutes may well stay on benefits AND rake in the money from prostitution.

-How many prostitutes bother to declare their cash in hand earnings? Again another significant perk if they are doing it tax free.

I can't see why any sex workers would bother with the face to face stuff. I watched a thing on iPlayer about a young girl who's making 35k a month on Only Fans. Obviously not everyone is making that amount but if you're going to go down that route then surely it's easier & less risky than the in person stuff.

[caffeine man]

I can't see why any sex workers would bother with the face to face stuff. I watched a thing on iPlayer about a young girl who's making 35k a month on Only Fans. Obviously not everyone is making that amount but if you're going to go down that route then surely it's easier & less risky than the in person stuff.

Only fans is easier than prostitution. But much more competition . Plus you are competing with free porn. Also, thousandsof people will see you on onlyfans. You could be recognised.


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[GhostofTarbera]

“ Sex workers in “dire and desperate” circumstances across the UK are continuing to see clients during the lockdown, potentially exposing themselves and others to coronavirus, according to charities and sex worker organisations.

“We are facing a massive crisis,” said Niki Adams from the English Collective of Prostitutes. “No one wants to be flouting the rules and putting themselves and others in danger, but those who are still working literally have no other choice.”

On one adult website, there were 800 sex workers across the UK “available to book” on Thursday, with approximately 150 of those in London. Adams said that many of those would not be working, but would be using the site to keep their profiles active in the hope that potential customers could be persuaded to pay for phone or cam sex. But others had not stopped work because they had no other income, no savings or had returned to work when rent and bills were due.

“We need immediate emergency cash payments to these women who at this moment have nothing to eat. We know who these women are, and we need to help them now, not in several weeks time,” she said.“

UK sex workers in 'dire and desperate' need amid coronavirus lockdown | Society | The Guardian

FFS, legalise it already - tax revenues will be much needed

Probably need to offer

2 for 1 or discounts to get business at this time Or other more risky incentives

Which is a very sad set of affairs


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[wattaj]

Prostitution can be done without subjugation, since some women choose to do it. Take the example of a young women with no other skills to sell.

In what way is having "no other skills to sell" not subjugation through the lack of opportunity?

[wattaj]

From 0 to pretentious in one sentence.

That'll be a "no" then.

You stick with your preconditioning, run along.

I think that we all have an element of preconditioning in our position on this subject. I think that I prefer mine to yours.