UK sex workers in 'dire and desperate' need amid coronavirus lockdown

[LondonManc]

If a woman is trafficked and coerced by a pimp, she cannot consent.

The fact that a punter doesn't know is his problem. Have sex with someone who hasn't consented, then you're a rapist. Being grossly negligent about establishing consent should not be a defence. And given the number of coerced women working as sex workers, to assume that consent is genuine is grossly negligent.

Why not assume consent is not genuine until proven otherwise in these circumstances?

Happy to agree on that one.

The rest is a grey area - not one that I'm in, not asking for a friend etc.

If they consent to your face and are smiling, but have been coerced by someone else, it's a bit tulip to label the punter a rapist.

[vetran]

Mass prosecutions for rape for 'clients' of coerced sex workers is an important step as well. Doesn't seem to be much of a policing priority.

Quite possibly if the punter knew there was no consent.

IANAL

The test of reasonable belief is a subjective test with an objective element. The best way of dealing with this issue is to ask two questions:

1. Did the defendant believe the complainant consented? This relates to his or her personal capacity to evaluate consent (the subjective element of the test).
2. If so, did the defendant reasonably believe it? It will be for the jury to decide if his or her belief was reasonable (the objective element).

Is that difficult if a financial arrangement has been entered into and she appears OK with that?


having never used a prostitute I can't give first hand knowledge. Though I doubt many interactions are quite as obvious as Jodie Foster / De Niro.


Or are we just going to prosecute any punter for rape? When does that extend to ex husbands?

[wattaj]

Or are we just going to prosecute any punter for rape? When does that extend to ex husbands?

Could you expand on that last point for those of us that are currently going WTF?

[LondonManc]

I'm afraid that I don't recall having seen that documentary, but I have seen others. I'd say that my experience of such things is that they have a narrow point of view and generally only scratch the surface of why someone might choose this line of work. That's not to say that I completely discount their conclusions; I just feel that they only represent part of the story.

I also have some concerns regarding The Guardian's position. It has a long-history of "sex work is real work" and a poor record of defending women's sex-based rights; particularly so in relation to transgender activism. I no-longer believe that The Guardian can be an honest broker in these sort of discussions. Sad, but here we are.

More British people support sex-work law reform than are against it, study finds | The Independent

Decriminalise prostitution, say nurses - BBC News

There were a couple more from online newspapers and a more balanced pros and cons article here:
Prostitution: the pros and cons of decriminalisation | News | The Week UK

[wattaj]

More British people support sex-work law reform than are against it, study finds | The Independent

Decriminalise prostitution, say nurses - BBC News

There were a couple more from online newspapers and a more balanced pros and cons article here:
Prostitution: the pros and cons of decriminalisation | News | The Week UK

Do any of these explore why someone chooses this line of work before I waste any more of my time?

[vetran]

Posts passim...

So as I understand it your options are to provide support and healthcare to sex workers even though we cannot prove they were trafficked or coerced and they are unlikely to be cooperative? Sounds easy lets cure world hunger & drug addiction after lunch.

My solution is to legalise & regulate and then prosecute anyone who operates outside that framework. Its not known as the oldest profession for naught, it will continue whether you like it or not.

[Old Greg]

Happy to agree on that one.

The rest is a grey area - not one that I'm in, not asking for a friend etc.

If they consent to your face and are smiling, but have been coerced by someone else, it's a bit tulip to label the punter a rapist.

It's a bit tulip to be raped. And if the sex worker has been raped, who is the rapist?

The implication of what you're saying is that it's OK for a punter to assume that the consent is genuine. And the woman is not 'consenting to your face'. She is being coerced into appearing to consent.

[wattaj]

So as I understand it your options are to provide support and healthcare to sex workers even though we cannot prove they were trafficked or coerced and they are unlikely to be cooperative? Sounds easy lets cure world hunger & drug addiction after lunch.

My solution is to legalise & regulate and then prosecute anyone who operates outside that framework. Its not known as the oldest profession for naught, it will continue whether you like it or not.

My position is to eradicate it over time, yours would appear to be make money out of it. I think that yours is an odd position to take.

[vetran]

Could you expand on that last point for those of us that are currently going WTF?

Consent is a very difficult thing to prove in most cases. It can also appear to be withdrawn retrospectively when advantageous.

Court grants divorce after wife made false rape claim | Scotland | The Times

Divorce and the 'Silver Bullet' - Quillette

Being Falsely Accused of Rape

The truth about false assault accusations by women - BBC News

Over the past 20 years, only 2-10% of rape accusations (Prof Ford's lawyer says she believes this was attempted rape) are proven to be fake, argue the authors of a 2010 US study.That figure does not include any unsubstantiated accusations where an investigation was unable to prove a sexual assault occurred, so an accurate figure for the total remains unknown.
Other studies have figures in the same range. The FBI has put the number of "unfounded" rapes - those determined to be false after investigation - at 8%.

Note in the UK only 5% of reports end in prosecution, yet 8% are unfounded according to the FBI (yes I know its crossing the sea but indicative).

yep its a real WTF! So unless you have clear guidelines and an alternative, prosecuting punters is likely to fail. Its highly likely such a stance will result in pimps extorting money from punters.

[vetran]

My position is to eradicate it over time, yours would appear to be make money out of it. I think that yours is an odd position to take.

My point is you will never eradicate it, just like prohibition you will invite the most ruthless to run it. Selling sex for money or power is as old as the hills, it isn't going away.

Hell yes tax it and lock the traffickers up for not paying tax, I don't care why they go behind bars just that they do.

If we regulate it we can test the workers, get them off drugs & counsel them- its a win-win. Its also the least of all evils.