UK sex workers in 'dire and desperate' need amid coronavirus lockdown

[wattaj]

You profess to have great knowledge in the areas of drugs, alcohol and prostitution....

No, I make no such claim. I just make my position from the knowledge that I have as I'm sure that you also do.

[LondonManc]

No, I make no such claim. I just make my position from the knowledge that I have as I'm sure that you also do.

Yep and there was a Channel 4 (or 5) documentary a few years ago talking about the exploitation of women in the industry. I've pretty much repeated its summary of findings - there are women treating it as a business who are doing well for themselves and are almost exploiting the men if anything compared to those who are doing it out of necessity. The documentary was fairly clear that street workers were far more likely to be exploited/abused than those who were classed as escorts and masseurs instead.

In terms of the industry, licencing and taxing it wouldn't take much and would also see more protection afforded to the women. Just tried to find it but the first thing that came up was an article from the Graun from a couple of years ago saying a similar thing: Decriminalise sex work to protect us from crime, prostitutes say | Prostitution | The Guardian

Moving to a cashless society would facilitate things too.

[vetran]

You miss my point: that you have selected two outliers (Cynthia Payne and Brooke Magnanti) in order to support your position that people can, and do, choose this line of work. It is not that prohibition or the illegal drugs trade are outliers.

However, let me underline a point that I made earlier: that the drugs trade could be legalised and the result would be much like the present day farming and pharmaceuticals industries IF one can also address addiction and drug misuse. No-one would continue to be harmed by a now legal and regulated drugs trade. Prostitution is different: someone would still have to provide that personal service and that person is more likely to be the one being exploited in the power dynamic.



No. I'm just not a dick. HTH.

noun: outlier; plural noun: outliers

• a person or thing situated away or detached from the main body or system.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"a western outlier in the Andaman archipelago"[/COLOR]
  
  
  
  
  
  • a person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"an outlier in Faulkner's body of work"[/COLOR]
    
    
    
    
  • GEOLOGY
    a younger rock formation isolated among older rocks.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the Jurassic outlier west of Carlisle"[/COLOR]
    
    
    
    
  • STATISTICS
    a data point on a graph or in a set of results that is very much bigger or smaller than the next nearest data point.
    
    
  
  
  
  
  

As we are talking about fundamentally changing the whole group we are studying to remove coercion then I would suggest they are examples of a possible future not outliers. As it is illegal to run a brothel and socially unacceptable to be a prostitute I suspect they are the tip of the iceberg.

As I understand it your issue is with people being forced to do sex work. I'm completely with you I don't want that either. I have proposed legalising it and prosecuting those who don't want to work legally both as prostitutes or pimps/madams. I see this as the most sensible solution. I see this as the only step that will allow us to police it.

You don't seem to have offered a solution just said it is wrong. This led me to believe you had a faith driven objection as it sounded like dogma.

[Old Greg]

As we are talking about fundamentally changing the whole group we are studying to remove coercion then I would suggest they are examples of a possible future not outliers. As it is illegal to run a brothel and socially unacceptable to be a prostitute I suspect they are the tip of the iceberg.

As I understand it your issue is with people being forced to do sex work. I'm completely with you I don't want that either. I have proposed legalising it and prosecuting those who don't want to work legally both as prostitutes or pimps/madams. I see this as the most sensible solution. I see this as the only step that will allow us to police it.

You don't seem to have offered a solution just said it is wrong. This led me to believe you had a faith driven objection as it sounded like dogma.

Mass prosecutions for rape for 'clients' of coerced sex workers is an important step as well. Doesn't seem to be much of a policing priority.

[LondonManc]

Mass prosecutions for rape for 'clients' of coerced sex workers is an important step as well. Doesn't seem to be much of a policing priority.

Awkward one - accepting the money suggests consent, just like you turning up without signing an extension suggests that you've consented to it.

[Old Greg]

Awkward one - accepting the money suggests consent, just like you turning up without signing an extension suggests that you've consented to it.

Terrible analogy.

Coercion = no consent = rape. Rape should mean prosecution.

[LondonManc]

Terrible analogy.

Coercion = no consent = rape. Rape should mean prosecution.

Not really.

You pay the money to woman, she takes it, has sex with you.

How can you prove coercion? Never been to a brass, so wouldn't know - presumably they're a bit reluctant?

Genuinely would like to know how a punter is meant to be able to tell if the worker has been coerced or not.

[Old Greg]

Not really.

You pay the money to woman, she takes it, has sex with you.

How can you prove coercion? Never been to a brass, so wouldn't know - presumably they're a bit reluctant?

Genuinely would like to know how a punter is meant to be able to tell if the worker has been coerced or not.

If a woman is trafficked and coerced by a pimp, she cannot consent.

The fact that a punter doesn't know is his problem. Have sex with someone who hasn't consented, then you're a rapist. Being grossly negligent about establishing consent should not be a defence. And given the number of coerced women working as sex workers, to assume that consent is genuine is grossly negligent.

Why not assume consent is not genuine until proven otherwise in these circumstances?

[wattaj]

Yep and there was a Channel 4 (or 5) documentary a few years ago talking about the exploitation of women in the industry. I've pretty much repeated its summary of findings - there are women treating it as a business who are doing well for themselves and are almost exploiting the men if anything compared to those who are doing it out of necessity. The documentary was fairly clear that street workers were far more likely to be exploited/abused than those who were classed as escorts and masseurs instead.

In terms of the industry, licencing and taxing it wouldn't take much and would also see more protection afforded to the women. Just tried to find it but the first thing that came up was an article from the Graun from a couple of years ago saying a similar thing: Decriminalise sex work to protect us from crime, prostitutes say | Prostitution | The Guardian

Moving to a cashless society would facilitate things too.

I'm afraid that I don't recall having seen that documentary, but I have seen others. I'd say that my experience of such things is that they have a narrow point of view and generally only scratch the surface of why someone might choose this line of work. That's not to say that I completely discount their conclusions; I just feel that they only represent part of the story.

I also have some concerns regarding The Guardian's position. It has a long-history of "sex work is real work" and a poor record of defending women's sex-based rights; particularly so in relation to transgender activism. I no-longer believe that The Guardian can be an honest broker in these sort of discussions. Sad, but here we are.

[wattaj]

You don't seem to have offered a solution just said it is wrong.

Posts passim...

Putting organised crime and female trafficking to one side for a moment...

Addressing any latent mental health* and drug and alcohol dependency** issues and support and training into productive work?

Unfortunately, this costs money -- it is a sunk cost with little prospect of a return on this investment in the medium, or even long-term -- and no-one is willing to pay. It's far easier to frame the discussion as one of personal choice and to look away.

Generally speaking, a liberal's default is to legitimise sex work and tax it, but commoditising women's' bodies and dignity isn't something that a civilised society should be endorsing.

Other opinions are available.


* No, not all prostitutes have mental health issues.
** No, not all prostitutes suffer from drug or alcohol addiction.