You pay nothing

[xoggoth]

We could, if we wanted, restrict migration to only those that have jobs, can support themselves without benefits, and have personal health insurance. It’s the UK’s choice not to do this.

I agree, however "those that have jobs, can support themselves without benefits, and have personal health insurance" is not the same thing as "well above-average performers who will take our economy in an upward direction".

If someone works as a waiter in some struggling little cafe he/she could still meet your criteria. Low cost staff should not be keeping afloat all these low productivity businesses which would otherwise not survive. We need to embrace technology and aim for a more efficient, productive economy.

[sasguru]

I agree, however "those that have jobs, can support themselves without benefits, and have personal health insurance" is not the same thing as "well above-average performers who will take our economy in an upward direction".

If someone works as a waiter in some struggling little cafe he/she could still meet your criteria. Low cost staff should not be keeping afloat all these low productivity businesses which would otherwise not survive. We need to embrace technology and aim for a more efficient, productive economy.

Will "well above-average performers" want to come to what has become perceived as an insular, grey, rainy little island with reduced economic prospects post-Brexit?

[original PM]

Will "well above-average performers" want to come to what has become perceived as an insular, grey, rainy little island with reduced economic prospects post-Brexit?

Ok....

and your point is?

What was being said was that we should only consider well above average performers - not that we need them.

[sasguru]

Ok....

and your point is?

What was being said was that we should only consider well above average performers - not that we need them.

But you do need them. Your kids aren't going to become neurosurgeons or AI specialists are they?
There aren't enough clever people produced natively to run a modern economy which relies on high cognitive ability.

[original PM]

But you do need them. Your kids aren't going to become neurosurgeons or AI specialists are they?
There aren't enough clever people produced natively to run a modern economy which relies on high cognitive ability.

Why not?

Also your argument falls flat on it's face as it implies there are other countries which have a surplus of these clever people.

And if they do, why can we not, given we have some of the most respected educational institutes in the world.

[meridian]

I agree, however "those that have jobs, can support themselves without benefits, and have personal health insurance" is not the same thing as "well above-average performers who will take our economy in an upward direction".

If someone works as a waiter in some struggling little cafe he/she could still meet your criteria. Low cost staff should not be keeping afloat all these low productivity businesses which would otherwise not survive. We need to embrace technology and aim for a more efficient, productive economy.

Sure. But then you ignored my question about how you’re determining “well above-average performers”.

Even ignoring critical services such as nurses, teachers, plumbers, etc where the U.K. is taking advantage of the fact that these (relatively) lower paid workers have had their training paid for by another country, there’s an argument that a waiter in a struggling cafe is still providing a valuable community service - they are self-sufficient (assuming they meet the criteria that the U.K. currently chooses not to apply), they help keep a local business afloat, and presumably by helping a business keep afloat they help corporation tax and VAT make its way into the exchequer.

[TwoWolves]

We can discuss this till the cows come home.

Fact is the demographics don't favour the UK - it's an increasingly ageing population.
https://www.ageing.ox.ac.uk/files/Fu...ing_Report.pdf

And even the younger population are amongst the fattest (and therefore most unhealthy) in Europe.
https://www.indy100.com/article/thes...pe--byA0nZNvxZ

...which costs the NHS hugely:
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...environment--2

And are poorly educated as I mentioned before:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-parents.html

It's an interesting question as to who will be doing the work to support these people.

Migrants get old too, migration is not a solution. We need to raise the retirement age and improve the overall health and productivity of the population.

[sasguru]

Why not?

Because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Also your argument falls flat on it's face as it implies there are other countries which have a surplus of these clever people.

And if they do, why can we not, given we have some of the most respected educational institutes in the world.

No country has a surplus of clever people however good their academic institutions. All countries have a shortfall. Top companies compete for a global pool of top talent.

[sasguru]

We need to raise the retirement age and improve the overall health and productivity of the population.

Good luck with that. Like the 30% plus of fatties are suddenly going to slim down and work hard.

[woohoo]

Sure. But then you ignored my question about how you’re determining “well above-average performers”.

Even ignoring critical services such as nurses, teachers, plumbers, etc where the U.K. is taking advantage of the fact that these (relatively) lower paid workers have had their training paid for by another country, there’s an argument that a waiter in a struggling cafe is still providing a valuable community service - they are self-sufficient (assuming they meet the criteria that the U.K. currently chooses not to apply), they help keep a local business afloat, and presumably by helping a business keep afloat they help corporation tax and VAT make its way into the exchequer.

(assuming they meet the criteria that the U.K. currently chooses not to apply) - My understanding is we can't discriminate between our local population and EU immigrants. So, you can't deny benefits to an EU waiter who is poorly paid unless you also apply that rule to your local population.

Let me know what I've got wrong because I've read similar argument a couple of times now.