Faith in the country again!

[Lucy]

You're not bursting my bubble at all. I've been a fan of the man's music for many years, and everytime I see him he's better than before!

There are many people in the world who genuinely believe in the idealism of communism you know Lucy - its not an evil concept. Its quite a beautiful concept when you get down to the nitty gritty...it just never seems to work.

I didn't mention anything about the minors like, and I cant really be arsed with this argument - I'll save that for another time.

But thanks for your very educational "straight out of a book" post all the same.

I suppose all I can say to this is if you like communism, you can always go and live in North Korea, or go and visit. Saying it is beautiful in one breath, and 'doesn't quite work' in the next is somewhat contradictory. (The same could be said of Eugenics) !

Your point, 'It is not evil' I must address. A direct quote from Marx (so, this IS the essence, without implementation and just the ideal).

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs"

Which means, if you are lazy and imcompetent, you are valued as much as a clever and hard working person, and you only get what you need.(Hardly £500 a day I would imagine). So all the great inventors, discovers, innovators, risk takers, the talented, all get the same, hardly a motivator.

There have been at least 17 attempts to implement communism, all have seen thousands or millions murdered. How many more times is it okay to do this ? Remember Eastern europe was as wealthy and as functional as Western europe until Stalin took over.

If you can share the 'nitty gritty' of communism please do, or, address any of the facts I am open to your opinions.

As for the educational 'straight of a book' answer, my answer comes from knowledge I have gained from reading many books over the years. Politics is an interest of mine and it is important, and if you are going to believe in something, it is probably good to have some facts.

[wendigo100]

There are many people in the world who genuinely believe in the idealism of communism you know Lucy - its not an evil concept. Its quite a beautiful concept when you get down to the nitty gritty

Communism is an evil concept, because it depends wholly on removing human freedom.

The "nitty gritty" is big state police, shortages, big military, totally controlled media, black markets, the privileged few, thought-crime, poverty, and dreams of living somewhere else. Nothing beautiful there.

People who believe in it either see themselves as one of the privileged few in the top jobs, or are naive. Totally and utterly naive.

[SallyAnne]

I suppose all I can say to this is if you like communism, you can always go and live in North Korea, or go and visit. Saying it is beautiful in one breath, and 'doesn't quite work' in the next is somewhat contradictory. (The same could be said of Eugenics) !

Your point, 'It is not evil' I must address. A direct quote from Marx (so, this IS the essence, without implementation and just the ideal).

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs"

Which means, if you are lazy and imcompetent, you are valued as much as a clever and hard working person, and you only get what you need.(Hardly £500 a day I would imagine). So all the great inventors, discovers, innovators, risk takers, the talented, all get the same, hardly a motivator.

There have been at least 17 attempts to implement communism, all have seen thousands or millions murdered. How many more times is it okay to do this ? Remember Eastern europe was as wealthy and as functional as Western europe until Stalin took over.

If you can share the 'nitty gritty' of communism please do, or, address any of the facts I am open to your opinions.

As for the educational 'straight of a book' answer, my answer comes from knowledge I have gained from reading many books over the years. Politics is an interest of mine and it is important, and if you are going to believe in something, it is probably good to have some facts.

I'm not saying I support communism for the record. You brought it up!
But I appreciate it as an idealism.
It never works in real life because the people at the top are always too selfish and greedy for it ever to work. But as a concept - I honestly do think its quite beautiful. Everyone simply doing their own thing - if I bake bread then I can exchange it for veg or for a roof over my head. Everyone has needs, and no monetary value is placed on anything, so all needs are equal kind of thing. Its kinda sweet - but never works.
Our society rarel works for everyone either though dont forget - just to a much lesser extent.

I must admit I did think you'd just copied and pasted that - I'm very impressed wth your knowledge mate

Stop dissing he Bragg though - he's a legend! (and very cute)

[Ardesco]

I honestly do think its quite beautiful. Everyone simply doing their own thing - if I bake bread then I can exchange it for veg or for a roof over my head. Everyone has needs, and no monetary value is placed on anything, so all needs are equal kind of thing. Its kinda sweet - but never works.

You still can, that is what a market is for. You bake bread and sell it and with the money you earn from selling it you can buy veg or a roof over your head

The ideal of communism where everybody uses thier skills to make life better for everybody else is a wonderful ideal, however the ideal does not take into account the fact that some people have no skills, some people are lazy, and some people (who normally end up at the top) have a main skill that is manipulating people to give themselves power and make thier own life easy.

Communism will never work unless you have an evil bastard at the top making it work by getting rid of the people that are useless, keeping the ones that have differing points of view in line and ruling it with an iron fist.

Unfortunatly as soon as this happens it is no longer an communism and the society is likely to decline into chaos when the person at the top makes a bad decision and forces the rest of the country to follow that bad decision.

Basically communism is unworkable, always has been, always will be, yet there are people that will always look on it with rose tinted glasses and wax lyrical about how wonderful an idea it is.....

[SallyAnne]

The ideal of communism where everybody uses thier skills to make life better for everybody else is a wonderful ideal...

Basically communism is unworkable, always has been, always will be, yet there are people that will always look on it with rose tinted glasses and wax lyrical about how wonderful an idea it is.....

Like you just did?

[wendigo100]

Animal Farm.

1984.

Double-double 1984.

[John Galt]

"It never works in real life because the people at the top are always too selfish and greedy for it ever to work"

I must take issue with this Sally Ann. Communism does not work because human nature does not allow it to. It is not just the people at the top that prevent its success it is people in general. The whole of humanity would have to be totally selfless for communism ever to work and this will never happen. And, while we're on the subject, why should a doctor who has studied for up to 10 years and dedicated his life to helping others have the same standard of living as someone who was too lazy to work at school and can't be bothered to better themselves as an adult? The ideal of everyone being equal encourages the lazy, weak spongers to accept what is offered whilst putting in the minimum of effort and it discourages the potentially successfull from working to their full potential as they know they will get no reward. Basically it drags everyone down to the lowest common denominator

[wendigo100]

But as a concept - I honestly do think its quite beautiful. Everyone simply doing their own thing - if I bake bread then I can exchange it for veg or for a roof over my head. Everyone has needs, and no monetary value is placed on anything, so all needs are equal kind of thing.

You're away with the fairies lass!

Tell us what you know about human nature.

[Lucy]

Well, indeed JG.

To say something is a brilliant ideal, but never works in practice, defies logic. It's like an invention that works on paper but not in practice, ie it doesn't work at all.

My problem with Mr Bragg is his use of celebrity to promote his twatty politics, I just cannot support someone who has been an instrument of horrific governments.

I used to be a fan of U2, and I still like their music, I just can't bear Bono's bleating. (Mr I have a personal fortune inexcess of £250M, and YOU should be giving to charity, whilst I move my business out of Ireland to save tax) Bono = Bollockbrain.

And, Sal, on a more personal and direct note, would you consider giving more of your earnings to charity ? That would be more inline with your beliefs perhaps ...

[Churchill]

You're away with the fairies lass!

Tell us what you know about human nature.

SallyAnne, if you were in a communist state you would've been shot for eating all the pies!