So why the productivity gap?

[Cirrus]

Oh God, did you work on these?

No I did end user programming in IBM Basic, PL/I and the IBM 4GL ***AS. (The asterisks were part of the name, not indicating something missing)

My IT career went downhill from then on...

[SussexSeagull]

I tend to find British companies unwilling to invest in training and technology.

[WTFH]

I tend to find British companies unwilling to invest in training and technology.

Too focussed on short term profit/keeping shareholders happy today, rather than playing the long game

[shaunbhoy]

My experience of working in Germany and Switzerland is that:

1. People don't chat as much during the working day about crap like footie or what they did at the weekend. They just get on with the job. They do take a full hour for lunch and talk then. They leave on time, there's less politics about staying late to impress the boss (i.e. less presenteeism).

2. Fewer open plan offices. Programmers are sometimes 2 per room - much better for productivity.

3. The average ability of the non-graduates is higher than the equivalent Brit. On the skilled graduate level, Brits are, on average, better because more creative and less rigid.

4. There's more specialisation so people eventually get good at what they do, less chopping and changing, less amateurism. That's because in general their companies are more stable.

All very fascinating, but it is impossible to overlay your limited experiences as a chalet girl onto any high tech industrial setting and produce meaningful data.

[_V_]

My experience of working in Germany and Switzerland is that:

1. People don't chat as much during the working day about crap like footie or what they did at the weekend. They just get on with the job. They do take a full hour for lunch and talk then. They leave on time, there's less politics about staying late to impress the boss (i.e. less presenteeism).

2. Fewer open plan offices. Programmers are sometimes 2 per room - much better for productivity.

3. The average ability of the non-graduates is higher than the equivalent Brit. On the skilled graduate level, Brits are, on average, better because more creative and less rigid.

4. There's more specialisation so people eventually get good at what they do, less chopping and changing, less amateurism. That's because in general their companies are more stable.

I work at a German owned company, but based in the UK office.

Spot on, exactly my findings. The Brits in the office chat endlessly about what they watched on TV, what they are buying next on Amazon, what they did on holiday. Pretty much the whole day, chat, chat, chat.

The German colleagues 100% focused on the task. Job done.

[woohoo]

I think most if it is down to long-term investment and thinking. We have a short term approach to most things in this country.

I've been at a few companies and have witnessed new CEO's arriving and the first thing they do is cut-costs by getting rid of people. Makes the balance sheet look a bit better but then everyone else is killing themselves trying to do the same work. Demotivating and often the best people can/tend to walk.

Not sure how true it is anymore but when I studied management at Uni, managers in other countries like Germany tended to be professional managers and trained to do that job. Often they would be expected to study for second degree. Managers in the UK tended to be more amateurish, often accountants asked to manage departments with little experience but they talked in numbers. Big generalization...and I think may have changed a little now.

On the positive we have a huge pool of talent that are educated/creative and damn good at what they do.

[Paddy]

I think most if it is down to long-term investment and thinking. We have a short term approach to most things in this country.

I've been at a few companies and have witnessed new CEO's arriving and the first thing they do is cut-costs by getting rid of people. Makes the balance sheet look a bit better but then everyone else is killing themselves trying to do the same work. Demotivating and often the best people can/tend to walk.

Not sure how true it is anymore but when I studied management at Uni, managers in other countries like Germany tended to be professional managers and trained to do that job. Often they would be expected to study for second degree. Managers in the UK tended to be more amateurish, often accountants asked to manage departments with little experience but they talked in numbers. Big generalization...and I think may have changed a little now.

On the positive we have a huge pool of talent that are educated/creative and damn good at what they do.

At a former client co in NL, it was very laid back but highly efficient and productive. Along came a new German Manager who attempted to organise his system to the clock and remove the fun aspect. Staff left and productivity fell. He was sacked after six months. Productivity rocketed after he left even without a manager for two months.

[VectraMan]

The interesting thing about this is that we're behind the Americans too. It seems to me ours tends towards the American work culture of wanting to be seen working lots of hours more than the German culture of working less hours but working harder. You can see why the latter works better, but why do Americans manage to be more productive than us? I've spent the last 5 years working for US companies, and whilst there are hard working highly motivated people there are also just as many who make you wonder how they ever got into a position of responsibility.

The cynic in me would say it's entitlement. The reaction to immigrants taking "our jobs" is not to work harder or better or try to improve things it's to demand that the borders are closed because people have it in their heads that somehow we're British dammit, and therefore entitled to be rich without having to work for it. And the British are quick to blame any problems on 'management, or politicians, or t'elite, or t'EU.

Or perhaps we're all just lazy. I know I am.

[woohoo]

The cynic in me would say it's entitlement. The reaction to immigrants taking "our jobs" is not to work harder or better or try to improve things it's to demand that the borders are closed because people have it in their heads that somehow we're British dammit, and therefore entitled to be rich without having to work for it. And the British are quick to blame any problems on 'management, or politicians, or t'elite, or t'EU.

Or perhaps we're all just lazy. I know I am.

I don't really recognize this, at least with the people I know and have worked with. My guess is lots of things like short-term thinking, lack of investment in tech/research, poor education and unprofessional management.

I think immigration does impact on jobs to a certain extent. It does also affect communities but I've not heard anyone in work complaining about their right for a job or to be rich.

[vetran]

I don't really recognize this, at least with the people I know and have worked with. My guess is lots of things like short-term thinking, lack of investment in tech/research, poor education and unprofessional management.

I think immigration does impact on jobs to a certain extent. It does also affect communities but I've not heard anyone in work complaining about their right for a job or to be rich.

its the same as the 'lazy benefit scrounger' it allows people to feel superior to be rude about people based on their prejudice. The facts are somewhat more complicated.