Remain vs Brexit

[OwlHoot]

What is interesting is that this debate is polarised between two types of people (and it is the same two groups who constantly argue over many of the topics on CUK). On the one side there are the predictable self loathing leftie liberals who hate the Uk supporting "remain". ...

Absolutely agree with your post as a whole, but to a grammar pedant such as myself that sentence is interesting example of how missing commas can change and even reverse its intended sense.

Without any commas it means "those leftie liberals who (among possibly other leftie liberals who don't) hate the fact that the UK supports remain" :

leftie liberals who hate the Uk supporting "remain"

With one comma is means "the leftie liberals who as it happens all hate the fact that the UK supports remain" :

leftie liberals, who hate the Uk supporting "remain"

But the adding a couple of commas changes its sense to what you presumably meant:

leftie liberals, who hate the Uk, supporting "remain"

[VectraMan]

What is interesting is that this debate is polarised between two types of people (and it is the same two groups who constantly argue over many of the topics on CUK). On the one side there are the predictable self loathing leftie liberals who hate the Uk supporting "remain". This is to the point of an obsessive desire not to give way on any point whatsoever. On the other side are those of us who are comfortable with being British and have confidence in our fellow countrymen such that we believe the UK can stand on its own two feet. This is driven as much by the fact that we are behind the UK just as the remainers are driven by the fact that they hate the UK.

Quite comical really. Thinking we're better off with others is "hating the UK". I guess you consider a man with friends "self-loathing" and that he should have the confidence to stand on his own two feet and have nobody to go to the pub with.

Nobody suggests the UK can't survive by itself; to think that suggests the EU has been supporting us all these years and only the Kippers think the EU has that degree of control of our lives. The UK can survive by itself; North Korea survives by itself but I wouldn't want to live there. It's only a question of whether there are benefits for everyone to have closer ties to the rest of the world and thousands of years of history tells you that there are.

[jamesbrown]

It's way more complicated than that IMO. I agree with Bremainers about as much as Brexiters on other issues. I guess I'm a centrist on the whole, but I do value our democratic processes enormously (regardless of a particular gov't). This goes way beyond politics. For me, it's about who should run our country, not necessarily how. I totally disagree with those that want to use the EU as some sort of check on the worst excesses of ang given political party who might be in gov't at any given time (e.g. the Tories). That is incredibly childish and shortsighted.

The debate, such as it is, hasn't made me waver at all. One thing is clear about CUK however: the most vocal supporters mainly seem to be living outside the UK. That's fine and understandable, but it adds a certain passion for Bremain that I doubt some of them would have otherwise (based on their posting histories). Who knows though. People are complicated.

[shaunbhoy]

I guess you consider a man with friends "self-loathing" and that he should have the confidence to stand on his own two feet and have nobody to go to the pub with.

The "man" in the equation is simply mulling over the fact that, under the current system, he goes to the pub with his "friends" and buys 2 rounds to every 1 of theirs. In the EU context he can always ask them to be more reasonable(maybe get Cameron to request a new deal?), but what happens is that they put it to the vote and most of them think it is best that Britain just keeps on buying extra rounds. So that is how it remains.
Personally speaking, I'd find new friends that pay their way in a classier pub.

[GB9]

Quite comical really. Thinking we're better off with others is "hating the UK". I guess you consider a man with friends "self-loathing" and that he should have the confidence to stand on his own two feet and have nobody to go to the pub with.

Nobody suggests the UK can't survive by itself; to think that suggests the EU has been supporting us all these years and only the Kippers think the EU has that degree of control of our lives. The UK can survive by itself; North Korea survives by itself but I wouldn't want to live there. It's only a question of whether there are benefits for everyone to have closer ties to the rest of the world and thousands of years of history tells you that there are.

And the point that the Remainers struggle to see is that you can all get along without having to be part of each others group. It isn't difficult.

Fundamentally England in particular is conservative and the EU is socialist. That's why we want out. It's the same reason Scotland wanted out of the UK but into the EU. It is pretty socialist and wants to live by socialist policies, not conservative ones.

[The_Equalizer]

Quite comical really. Thinking we're better off with others is "hating the UK". I guess you consider a man with friends "self-loathing" and that he should have the confidence to stand on his own two feet and have nobody to go to the pub with.

Nobody suggests the UK can't survive by itself; to think that suggests the EU has been supporting us all these years and only the Kippers think the EU has that degree of control of our lives. The UK can survive by itself; North Korea survives by itself but I wouldn't want to live there. It's only a question of whether there are benefits for everyone to have closer ties to the rest of the world and thousands of years of history tells you that there are.

I would hazard a guess that most Brexiters would support a common trade arrangement with Europe. It's just the car crash of complete integration - the EU project - that they (and I) object to. This thing about wishing for isolation just isn't the case; quite the opposite in fact.

[filthy1980]

I've said it before but I'm voting leave purely because I don't feel - personally - that being part of the EU does anything for me as an individual, and I can't see how abstracting power further away from where I live and work is good for me.

All the arguments, whether for or against, are based purely on speculation since this situation is without precedent so it angers me that both sides claim with absolute conviction that all these terrible or great things will happen if we stay or leave. The reality I'm sure is that some things will get better and some will get worse - it's hardly likely that one decision can be purely beneficial and the other entirely detrimental, logic suggests otherwise.

also if we vote out now and it all goes to boobies up, I don't think we'd have much of an issue getting back in (if that was the fix)

if we vote in now, it'll be a few generations at least before a similar opportunity arises

[VectraMan]

One thing is clear about CUK however: the most vocal supporters mainly seem to be living outside the UK.

I'm not. And I have one British friend who lives abroad in an EU country who is as big a Kipper as anyone on here. That's especially hard to understand. But like most of the rest of you his arguments don't stand up to any scrutiny either.

Who are the kippers? Are you all living in survivalist enclaves with 2 years of baked beans in your bomb proof basement (and 5 years of Daily Express back issues that you can use to tell you you were right when the inevitable zombie-immigrant catastrophe befalls us all)?

[The_Equalizer]

I'm not. And I have one British friend who lives abroad in an EU country who is as big a Kipper as anyone on here. That's especially hard to understand. But like most of the rest of you his arguments don't stand up to any scrutiny either.

Who are the kippers? Are you all living in survivalist enclaves with 2 years of baked beans in your bomb proof basement (and 5 years of Daily Express back issues that you can use to tell you you were right when the inevitable zombie-immigrant catastrophe befalls us all)?

Only because Cameron and Osborne have given us the heads up on the impending Armageddon. Oh and the Express only has a readership of just over a million so a few of us must read something else, or perhaps not at all.

[VectraMan]

also if we vote out now and it all goes to boobies up, I don't think we'd have much of an issue getting back in (if that was the fix)

if we vote in now, it'll be a few generations at least before a similar opportunity arises

That's weird logic. If it went tits up we'd be in a much weaker position and may have to go through the same long process as everyone else to get back in. We probably wouldn't get the rebate, and probably would have to join the Euro.

On the other hand voting in doesn't force us into anything. The UK government can trigger the exit procedure at any time; it doesn't need a referendum. The slightly flimsy promise that the politicians always made about having a referendum before they cede any further powers to Brussels could still apply; we just need to make sure we hold them to that. It's only unlikely we'll have another referendum for no reason.