Brexit won't stop EU migration

[The_Equalizer]

Its hardly that is it? What they're saying is if you want access to the open market you must follow the rules which include free movement. All very libertarian and capitalist.
Problem is people like the open market but not the free movement.
No easy solution to that.

Two parties can trade with each other under whatever terms they agree. What's TTIP? The EU isn't forcing free movement of people on the US to get a deal. If it's mutally beneficial would except them to trade without such an agreement.

And, let's face it, this free movement of people thing is coming apart at the seams.

[sasguru]

Two parties can trade with each other under whatever terms they agree. What's TTIP? The EU isn't forcing free movement of people on the US to get a deal. If it's mutally beneficial would except them to trade without such an agreement.

And, let's face it, this free movement of people thing is coming apart at the seams.

TTIP isn't mainly about tariff-free trading though (although I think they are cutting some tariffs), it's about standardising requirements (quite controversial in this aspect).
Of course we'd come to some deal, but there would be costs.
As I've said before when businesses get extra costs, it's the workers who get to pay.

And anyone who thinks the UK can negotiate on the same terms as the US is living in cloud-cuckoo land.

[BlasterBates]

I guess there's a limit. The UK always asking for special favours and exceptions, trying to have our cake and eat it.
Actually I think we've got a good deal at the moment, keep the pound which we can control to a certain extent and undercut our Euro competitors while having all the benefits. Price of that is EU immigration - having said which with unemployment at 5% it does seem we can cope. There's still a shortage of tradesmen even with all these Poles about.

Every year 250,000 people are retiring i.e. above being replaced by young people. Efffectively immigration is keeping the working population stable.

In the past this was seen as a potential crisis, that the baby boomers would be retiring in droves around 2010 onwards. Seems that immigration has completely averted this. Japan on the other hand are facing a real crisis.

[sasguru]

Every year 250,000 people are retiring i.e. above being replaced by young people. Efffectively immigration is keeping the working population stable.

In the past this was seen as a potential crisis, that the baby boomers would be retiring in droves around 2010 onwards. Seems that immigration has completely averted this. Japan on the other hand are facing a real crisis.

In general I think immigration is a good thing, and most immigrants work hard, but I think it's the uncontrolled aspects that get people. And there are some immigrants who are just a waste of time - I think if Hamface was a better negotiator he would have got more than the gradual phased introduction of benefits over 4 years, which would have discouraged the more useless ones.
But benefit policy is something we do have control of - I'm sure we can tighten that up both to discourage immigrants who don't want to work as well as the lazy indigenous.

[jamesbrown]

In general I think immigration is a good thing, and most immigrants work hard, but I think it's the uncontrolled aspects that get people. And there are some immigrants who are just a waste of time - I think if Hamface was a better negotiator he would have got more than the gradual phased introduction of benefits over 4 years, which would have discouraged the more useless ones.
But benefit policy is something we do have control of - I'm sure we can tighten that up both to discourage immigrants who don't want to work as well as the lazy indigenous.

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't see any serious commentator arguing that in-work benefits are a significant pull factor (polling suggests that the majority of immigrants don't even know what benefits are available) or, therefore, a mechanism to reduce unskilled migration. The majority of the EU has a far more sensible, contribution-based, system, which is what we should adopt. Let's face it, our problems are twofold: the Eurozone (and much of the wider EU) is an economic basket case (the UK would fit that category if it weren't for Gidiot's property bubble); and the average wage in the UK is substantially higher than the average in those countries from whom we're receiving the most immigrants (even more with the NLW).

Hamface achieved a poor compromise on a factor that is largely irrelevant as a pull on low-skilled migration. The negotiation was, nevertheless, extremely useful in illustrating how the EU is completely unable to compromise when faced with its own destruction (I don't think that's an exaggeration). This leaves us in a tricky position. On the one hand, we won't be getting a favourable deal upon leaving. On the other hand, if we remain, we're handing the keys to a drunk.

[DodgyAgent]

In general I think immigration is a good thing, and most immigrants work hard, but I think it's the uncontrolled aspects that get people. And there are some immigrants who are just a waste of time - I think if Hamface was a better negotiator he would have got more than the gradual phased introduction of benefits over 4 years, which would have discouraged the more useless ones.
But benefit policy is something we do have control of - I'm sure we can tighten that up both to discourage immigrants who don't want to work as well as the lazy indigenous.

So you believe in uncontrolled immigration then? We could assimilate the entire working population of Poland or Nigeria and when they get old and past it what then? Do we then assimilate the working population of India and China? in the meantime we have 1,7 million people unemployed. presumably we can ignore this and just keep the doors open can we?

[The_Equalizer]

So you believe in uncontrolled immigration then? We could assimilate the entire working population of Poland or Nigeria and when they get old and past it what then? Do we then assimilate the working population of India and China? in the meantime we have 1,7 million people unemployed. presumably we can ignore this and just keep the doors open can we?

Stupidly high house prices - partly due to uncontrolled immigration - have had far more of a financial impact on the man in the street than leaving the EU ever would. I remember the mid-90s when just about anyone with a job could have bought somewhere, even in London.

[sasguru]

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't see any serious commentator arguing that in-work benefits are a significant pull factor (polling suggests that the majority of immigrants don't even know what benefits are available) or, therefore, a mechanism to reduce unskilled migration. The majority of the EU has a far more sensible, contribution-based, system, which is what we should adopt. Let's face it, our problems are twofold: the Eurozone (and much of the wider EU) is an economic basket case (the UK would fit that category if it weren't for Gidiot's property bubble); and the average wage in the UK is substantially higher than the average in those countries from whom we're receiving the most immigrants (even more with the NLW).

Hamface achieved a poor compromise on a factor that is largely irrelevant as a pull on low-skilled migration. The negotiation was, nevertheless, extremely useful in illustrating how the EU is completely unable to compromise when faced with its own destruction (I don't think that's an exaggeration). This leaves us in a tricky position. On the one hand, we won't be getting a favourable deal upon leaving. On the other hand, if we remain, we're handing the keys to a drunk.

Oh come now, not all of the Eurozone is a basket case - exclude the PIIGs and things are quite spiffing in Germany (which has massive surpluses unlike our deficits and manages to out-export the US ), Holland and even France. Even Spain is growing now, faster than the UK.
Your point about the Uk's property bubble is correct, our situation is more perilous than many realise- that's why I say people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
And I completely agree about having a contributory-based system (and lets not even go into the NHS which really should be insurance based like everywhere else in Europe) - this would stop people resenting other users.

I don't know what the benefits system is like, never have claimed any , but it does seem to me quite wrong that there can be streets full of unemployed Roma (as in that recent Channel 4 program). Now other countries would deal with this pragmatically by e.g. inventing so much bureacracy that it discourages anyone but the most intelligent (the Swiss way). There are ways to get round the spirit of the Euro law while still remaining within the letter. This is a game we havent played very well.

And I don't think the EU will collapse any time soon.

[sasguru]

I think it's the uncontrolled aspects that get people. And there are some immigrants who are just a waste of time .

So you believe in uncontrolled immigration then?

I suggest you stop gelling your hair and learn to read.

[DodgyAgent]

I suggest you stop gelling your hair and learn to read.

Is that the best you can do to avoid the question?