Question Time

[diseasex]

You are spot on

What is TTIP? And six reasons why the answer should scare you | Comment | Voices | The Independent

I'm actually waiting for TTIP. Free trade woohoo!!!

[The_Equalizer]

Far from it but I live in the real world...

That will only increase post-Brexit as they'll have even less leverage.

That is until the plebs get ****ed off with being under the jackboot. A set of national traits seems to define how a place does in the World and you're under estimating the British.

[sasguru]

That is until the plebs get ****ed off with being under the jackboot. A set of national traits seems to define how a place does in the World and you're under estimating the British.

Do you a think a country's place in the world is fixed?
Also I'm not sure which jackboot you're talking about - the big corps?

[DodgyAgent]

That is until the plebs get ****ed off with being under the jackboot. A set of national traits seems to define how a place does in the World and you're under estimating the British.

He thinks he is a cu*t above your average Brit who needs to be told what to do by the rich, powerful and privileged elite. I think he has been recruited by the establishment to perform "Jehovah's witness" style hiring tasks under the (false) premise that one day they might let him join their club

[The_Equalizer]

Do you a think a country's place in the world is fixed?
Also I'm not sure which jackboot you're talking about - the big corps?

Of course it's not guaranteed, however, why do half the World pour money into London propery? I think it's fair to say it's because the UK is a relatively stable, secure nation that's not prone to revault or rebellion.

The jackboot I was referring to was the government. I guess it doesn't matter if it's because big firms are leaning on it.

From the Bremainers I've seen I would say that their heart isn't in Britain, or should I say being British.

[sasguru]

From the Bremainers I've seen I would say that their heart isn't in Britain, or should I say being British.

I would say the opposite. As an OP posted yesterday, it is profoundly un-British to withdraw into insularity.
British foreign policy has for centuries been to be a counterweight to domination of the continent by one power.
In modern times, this means getting involved in Europe economically, since no one expects domination of Europe will be achieved militarily.
So remaining is analogous to fighting in the 1st and 2nd world wars. At that time Britain could have withdrawn or made peace with Germany letting them do what they wanted on the continent in exchange for not getting involved.

And I don't buy that Britain has no influence in Europe. On the contrary, the Europeans have lost their enthusiasm for socialism/communism and embraced what the left calls "neoliberalism" a la Thatcher.
That's why the Corbynytes can't bring themselves to like Europe.

[sasguru]

He thinks he is a cu*t above your average Brit who needs to be told what to do by the rich, powerful and privileged elite. I think he has been recruited by the establishment to perform "Jehovah's witness" style hiring tasks under the (false) premise that one day they might let him join their club

Honestly, the dribble you post only confirms the stereotypes of agents

[The_Equalizer]

I would say the opposite. As an OP posted yesterday, it is profoundly un-British to withdraw into insularity.
British foreign policy has for centuries been to be a counterweight to domination of the continent by one power.
In modern times, this means getting involved in Europe economically, since no one expects domination of Europe will be achieved militarily.
So remaining is analogous to fighting in the 1st and 2nd world wars. At that time Britain could have withdrawn or made peace with Germany letting them do what they wanted on the continent in exchange for not getting involved.

And I don't buy that Britain has no influence in Europe. On the contrary, the Europeans have lost their enthusiasm for socialism/communism and embraced what the left calls "neoliberalism" a la Thatcher.
That's why the Corbynytes can't bring themselves to like Europe.

Brexit isn't about 'withdraw into insularity' as you know. It's about managing our own affairs and looking beyond Europe as we always have done. The EU is not acting in unison with Britain as an equal partner; we, if anything, are seen as an annoyance, but good for the cash. We are certainly not a counterweight to German/French dominance from within. Just looks at Cameron’s non-existent reforms. He came back pretty much emptyhanded.

Your World War comments are precisely why Brexiters are passionate. Withdrawal would probably deal a fatal blow. Where is this EU project going? Sitting pretty here in the UK it's easy to ignore the failings, but large chucks of southern Europe are in real trouble. Youth unemployment in Portugal is 30%, Spain is above 45% and Greece is above 50%. Everyone knows there’s another Euro crisis coming with regards Greek debt. Migrant boats are out in force again. Another 500 odd drowned, tens of thousands on the move and we’ve yet to see how the EU bribe to Turkey will work out.

I am also pretty sure that France would disagree with your view that it subscribes to neoliberalism.

Personally, I have no interest in being a subordinate part in the EU. We’re not some basket case backwater. We’d be fine ‘standing on our own two feet’.

[sasguru]

Brexit isn't about 'withdraw into insularity' as you know. It's about managing our own affairs and looking beyond Europe as we always have done. The EU is not acting in unison with Britain as an equal partner; we, if anything, are seen as an annoyance, but good for the cash. We are certainly not a counterweight to German/French dominance from within. Just looks at Cameron’s non-existent reforms. He came back pretty much emptyhanded.

Your World War comments are precisely why Brexiters are passionate. Withdrawal would probably deal a fatal blow. Where is this EU project going? Sitting pretty here in the UK it's easy to ignore the failings, but large chucks of southern Europe are in real trouble. Youth unemployment in Portugal is 30%, Spain is above 45% and Greece is above 50%. Everyone knows there’s another Euro crisis coming with regards Greek debt. Migrant boats are out in force again. Another 500 odd drowned, tens of thousands on the move and we’ve yet to see how the EU bribe to Turkey will work out.

I am also pretty sure that France would disagree with your view that it subscribes to neoliberalism.

Personally, I have no interest in being a subordinate part in the EU. We’re not some basket case backwater. We’d be fine ‘standing on our own two feet’.

There's quite a bit I disagree with there:

- "Sitting pretty in the UK" - Well we're not all that "pretty" fiscally or in any other financial way. Quite a lot of our so-called prosperity is funded by debt or the housing ponzi scheme. Yes some of the Southern European states are struggling but that's to be expected after the biggest depression in modern times, caused it must be said by Anglo-Saxon bankers.
- Youth unemployment in the UK is officially 16% but that doesn't count all the youth in artificial training, crap degrees or other dodgy schemes.
- France may not subscribe to neoliberalism, but it has a far more enlightened (read: privatised) healthcare system than our Soviet model which is the elephant in the room that no one wants to reform.
- Fine on our own 2 feet? Which industrial British businesses (other than British Aerospace or RR) exactly do you think are world class? This is something Brexiteers completely ignore - the reality that Britain is post-industrial. Yes we have world class service companies, but these are increasingly "knowledge" companies that by their nature cannot employ that half of the population that are of under average intelligence. Quite a lot of what's left of British manufacturing is intimately tied in with Europe.

Finally I agree that Britain should not be subordinate in Euroland. But a lot of that is down to the half-hearted way we approach it. What happened to British diplomacy? - we have more in common with the Germans than the French do, but the French spend effort and time on that relationship.