Reply to: Question Time

[sasguru]

Brexit isn't about 'withdraw into insularity' as you know. It's about managing our own affairs and looking beyond Europe as we always have done. The EU is not acting in unison with Britain as an equal partner; we, if anything, are seen as an annoyance, but good for the cash. We are certainly not a counterweight to German/French dominance from within. Just looks at Cameron’s non-existent reforms. He came back pretty much emptyhanded.

Your World War comments are precisely why Brexiters are passionate. Withdrawal would probably deal a fatal blow. Where is this EU project going? Sitting pretty here in the UK it's easy to ignore the failings, but large chucks of southern Europe are in real trouble. Youth unemployment in Portugal is 30%, Spain is above 45% and Greece is above 50%. Everyone knows there’s another Euro crisis coming with regards Greek debt. Migrant boats are out in force again. Another 500 odd drowned, tens of thousands on the move and we’ve yet to see how the EU bribe to Turkey will work out.

I am also pretty sure that France would disagree with your view that it subscribes to neoliberalism.

Personally, I have no interest in being a subordinate part in the EU. We’re not some basket case backwater. We’d be fine ‘standing on our own two feet’.

There's quite a bit I disagree with there:

- "Sitting pretty in the UK" - Well we're not all that "pretty" fiscally or in any other financial way. Quite a lot of our so-called prosperity is funded by debt or the housing ponzi scheme. Yes some of the Southern European states are struggling but that's to be expected after the biggest depression in modern times, caused it must be said by Anglo-Saxon bankers.
- Youth unemployment in the UK is officially 16% but that doesn't count all the youth in artificial training, crap degrees or other dodgy schemes.
- France may not subscribe to neoliberalism, but it has a far more enlightened (read: privatised) healthcare system than our Soviet model which is the elephant in the room that no one wants to reform.
- Fine on our own 2 feet? Which industrial British businesses (other than British Aerospace or RR) exactly do you think are world class? This is something Brexiteers completely ignore - the reality that Britain is post-industrial. Yes we have world class service companies, but these are increasingly "knowledge" companies that by their nature cannot employ that half of the population that are of under average intelligence. Quite a lot of what's left of British manufacturing is intimately tied in with Europe.

Finally I agree that Britain should not be subordinate in Euroland. But a lot of that is down to the half-hearted way we approach it. What happened to British diplomacy? - we have more in common with the Germans than the French do, but the French spend effort and time on that relationship.

[The_Equalizer]

I would say the opposite. As an OP posted yesterday, it is profoundly un-British to withdraw into insularity.
British foreign policy has for centuries been to be a counterweight to domination of the continent by one power.
In modern times, this means getting involved in Europe economically, since no one expects domination of Europe will be achieved militarily.
So remaining is analogous to fighting in the 1st and 2nd world wars. At that time Britain could have withdrawn or made peace with Germany letting them do what they wanted on the continent in exchange for not getting involved.

And I don't buy that Britain has no influence in Europe. On the contrary, the Europeans have lost their enthusiasm for socialism/communism and embraced what the left calls "neoliberalism" a la Thatcher.
That's why the Corbynytes can't bring themselves to like Europe.

Brexit isn't about 'withdraw into insularity' as you know. It's about managing our own affairs and looking beyond Europe as we always have done. The EU is not acting in unison with Britain as an equal partner; we, if anything, are seen as an annoyance, but good for the cash. We are certainly not a counterweight to German/French dominance from within. Just looks at Cameron’s non-existent reforms. He came back pretty much emptyhanded.

Your World War comments are precisely why Brexiters are passionate. Withdrawal would probably deal a fatal blow. Where is this EU project going? Sitting pretty here in the UK it's easy to ignore the failings, but large chucks of southern Europe are in real trouble. Youth unemployment in Portugal is 30%, Spain is above 45% and Greece is above 50%. Everyone knows there’s another Euro crisis coming with regards Greek debt. Migrant boats are out in force again. Another 500 odd drowned, tens of thousands on the move and we’ve yet to see how the EU bribe to Turkey will work out.

I am also pretty sure that France would disagree with your view that it subscribes to neoliberalism.

Personally, I have no interest in being a subordinate part in the EU. We’re not some basket case backwater. We’d be fine ‘standing on our own two feet’.

[sasguru]

He thinks he is a cu*t above your average Brit who needs to be told what to do by the rich, powerful and privileged elite. I think he has been recruited by the establishment to perform "Jehovah's witness" style hiring tasks under the (false) premise that one day they might let him join their club

Honestly, the dribble you post only confirms the stereotypes of agents

[sasguru]

From the Bremainers I've seen I would say that their heart isn't in Britain, or should I say being British.

I would say the opposite. As an OP posted yesterday, it is profoundly un-British to withdraw into insularity.
British foreign policy has for centuries been to be a counterweight to domination of the continent by one power.
In modern times, this means getting involved in Europe economically, since no one expects domination of Europe will be achieved militarily.
So remaining is analogous to fighting in the 1st and 2nd world wars. At that time Britain could have withdrawn or made peace with Germany letting them do what they wanted on the continent in exchange for not getting involved.

And I don't buy that Britain has no influence in Europe. On the contrary, the Europeans have lost their enthusiasm for socialism/communism and embraced what the left calls "neoliberalism" a la Thatcher.
That's why the Corbynytes can't bring themselves to like Europe.

[The_Equalizer]

Do you a think a country's place in the world is fixed?
Also I'm not sure which jackboot you're talking about - the big corps?

Of course it's not guaranteed, however, why do half the World pour money into London propery? I think it's fair to say it's because the UK is a relatively stable, secure nation that's not prone to revault or rebellion.

The jackboot I was referring to was the government. I guess it doesn't matter if it's because big firms are leaning on it.

From the Bremainers I've seen I would say that their heart isn't in Britain, or should I say being British.

[DodgyAgent]

That is until the plebs get ****ed off with being under the jackboot. A set of national traits seems to define how a place does in the World and you're under estimating the British.

He thinks he is a cu*t above your average Brit who needs to be told what to do by the rich, powerful and privileged elite. I think he has been recruited by the establishment to perform "Jehovah's witness" style hiring tasks under the (false) premise that one day they might let him join their club

[sasguru]

That is until the plebs get ****ed off with being under the jackboot. A set of national traits seems to define how a place does in the World and you're under estimating the British.

Do you a think a country's place in the world is fixed?
Also I'm not sure which jackboot you're talking about - the big corps?

[The_Equalizer]

Far from it but I live in the real world...

That will only increase post-Brexit as they'll have even less leverage.

That is until the plebs get ****ed off with being under the jackboot. A set of national traits seems to define how a place does in the World and you're under estimating the British.

[diseasex]

You are spot on

What is TTIP? And six reasons why the answer should scare you | Comment | Voices | The Independent

I'm actually waiting for TTIP. Free trade woohoo!!!

[SunnyInHades]

Where the real issue is concerning the loss of sovereignty/independence)

This is key for many.

One example .. although some years the UK may require more net EU migrants than 300k, some years less, currently the EU bureaucrats can just give the UK a two fingered salute to our requirements whilst shouting back 'we make the rules you insignificant subordinate, you'll take as many as we decide - obey'.

[Mordac]

A lot of Brexiters "frothing at the mouth" after Obama's speech

Add one more to the list...

[BlasterBates]

A lot of Brexiters "frothing at the mouth" after Obama's speech

[sasguru]

Sas seems to actually approve of large corporations wielding the power, instead of democratically elected goernments.

Far from it but I live in the real world.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-google-amazon

If a post Brexit UK did that, the firms would simply say Fook Orf, you're not a large enough market.

My basic point is that UK governments of left and right have a habit of caving in to large corporations to the detriment of the UK citizen (look at Labour and the finance industry and the Tories and their puny tax on Google). That will only increase post-Brexit as they'll have even less leverage.

[OwlHoot]

That's the problem with Brexiteers, stuck in the past.
Living in a cloud cuckoo fantasy-land where they think Brexit will magically reset the clocks and Britannia will rule the waves again, as opposed to the reality of a post-Empire, and most importantly, post-industrial country having to survive in an increasingly globalised world, where the power is held by large corporations, not governments.

Make a one-line crack, Dodgy, and you get an essay in reply!

Sas seems to actually approve of large corporations wielding the power, instead of democratically elected goernments.

[darmstadt]

Do you really think any UK government would ever allow USA enterprises to take over the running of the NHS.

Yes, here's just a few of the American companies either partnering with the NHS, provide PFI or just plainly, have taken over parts of the NHS:

http://www.hcahealthcare.co.uk/about-hca/nhs-ventures/
https://www.tenethealth.com/
Your private healthcare choice - Aspen Healthcare | Aspen
https://www.optum.com/
UnitedHealth Group - Health Benefits and Services - Home
https://healthy.kaiserpermanente.org...er/index.shtml

provides electronic staff records services to the NHS, which include things such as payroll, pensions and other human resources functions. The company took over after another US company, the drug distributor and healthcare services company McKesson, decided to shift its focus away from the UK market. IBM’s service covers about 1.4m employees at the NHS. IBM has promised to modernise the electronic staff records and make them easily accessible from mobile devices. IBM holds a five-year contract with the NHS to administer the records.