Seven risks of voting to remain

[Intel]

It's CUK 2008 all over again!

if there was a big move towards a European super state.

See my previous post. A commitment to "Ever Closer Union" enshrined in multiple treaties over almost 60 years.

Cameron has a vague opt-out with no legally binding treaty to back it up.

When it boils down to it the question is about sovereignty. Do you want to be a British citizen of a citizen of the United States of Europe?

If they actually had the balls to say that that was the aim I think you'd be surprised at how many would actually vote for it. In the current half-assed form however it's the worst of both worlds.....

[dx4100]

Text from the 1957 Treaty of Rome:

“Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe ….."
and from article 2 in the treaty:
“closer relations between the States belonging to it”

From the solemn declaration on the EU from June 1983:
"on the basis of an awareness of a common destiny and the wish to affirm the European identity, confirm their commitment to progress towards an ever closer union among the peoples and Member States of the European Community"

From the 1986 Single European Act:
“MOVED by the will to … transform relations as a whole among their States into a European Union”

From the 1992 Maastricht Treaty:
"RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity."

From the 1997 Amsterdam Treaty, a new qualification to the "ever closer union" statement:
“in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen”

From the 2009 Lisbon treaty:
"This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen."

From the treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU - the renamed TEC):
"DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe …."


Sounds like a United States of Europe to me.....

And yet its 2016 and there is no sign of us being in a European super state....

[Intel]

And yet its 2016 and there is no sign of us being in a European super state....

We're a lot closer than in 1975 when the UK backed the European Economic Community (more commonly known as the Common Market) in the last referendum.

Since then there has been a drive to "ever closer" political and fiscal union without any form of electoral accountability. If we vote to stay in this time the general trend will continue.

[dx4100]

We're a lot closer than in 1975 when the UK backed the European Economic Community (more commonly known as the Common Market) in the last referendum.

Since then there has been a drive to "ever closer" political and fiscal union without any form of electoral accountability. If we vote to stay in this time the general trend will continue.

I actually think the UK is in a better political position than it was in 1975.

No one is going to deny we have closer political union. Fiscal union is a hard one to push though. We really haven't got any closer on that issue. We remain totally outside of the Eurozone and the prospect of us joining is very weak.

To push the idea that the united states of Europe is a realistic future for us is laughable. Its never going to happen. Project Fear stuff.

We are having our cake and eating it at the moment. We have a better deal than every other country in the EU. To throw it away makes literally no sense.

[Intel]

I actually think the UK is in a better political position than it was in 1975.

No one is going to deny we have closer political union. Fiscal union is a hard one to push though. We really haven't got any closer on that issue. We remain totally outside of the Eurozone and the prospect of us joining is very weak.

To push the idea that the united states of Europe is a realistic future for us is laughable. Its never going to happen. Project Fear stuff.

We are having our cake and eating it at the moment. We have a better deal than every other country in the EU. To throw it away makes literally no sense.

The biggest problem for the EU lot is a lack of vision, or the lack of balls to tell the electorate what they actually want to happen. As it stands I'm personally leaning towards out because this "union by a thousand cuts" is like pushing treacle uphill with a pointy stick. If you actually went out and said "We want a USE in the same model as the USA" I'd quite happily vote for that as it shows the kind of drive and determination that we need in the politicians, plus a United States of Europe would achieve a lot more in the world than a loose banding of independent states.

Unfortunately we can only vote for what is on the table and what is on the table at the moment is a tulip sandwich with in-fighting, red-tape and no clear direction. Given the options the only real way to go is out.

[VectraMan]

See my previous post. A commitment to "Ever Closer Union" enshrined in multiple treaties over almost 60 years.

Which means what exactly? If there's some kind of practical application of it then we need to decide on the basis of what's actually going to happen rather than running round in circles screaming about things that exist only in Kippers' imaginations.

Cameron has a vague opt-out with no legally binding treaty to back it up.

We always have the legal right for another referendum if we really can't opt-out of something we don't like. However the only major real world examples of closer union are the Euro and the Schengen zone, and we opted out of both. What are you so worried about?

When it boils down to it the question is about sovereignty. Do you want to be a British citizen of a citizen of the United States of Europe?

The first one. The second option doesn't exist.

[Gumbo Robot]

The idea that the UK is going to get swallowed up and become part of a European superstate is laughable at best...

Voting to leave one of the largest free trade areas in the world is economical suicide....

It's already well on the way to being a Superstate.

What else do you call a geographical entity that has a president, it's own flag & constitution & makes its own laws?

The only remaining part of the jigsaw is a common defence force.

Wake up!

[VectraMan]

What else do you call an entity that has a president, it's own flag & constitution & makes its own laws?

A club?

[Gumbo Robot]

If we do vote to remain, I can only hope that some other country has the cojones to hold a rerendum and vote to leave & this event will trigger the collapse of the whole rotten project.

[dx4100]

It's already well on the way to being a Superstate.

What else do you call a geographical entity that has a president, it's own flag & constitution & makes its own laws?

The only remaining part of the jigsaw is a common defence force.

Wake up!

Why is the idea of superstate so scary to you anyway ?