No discussion on the Remains leaflet?

[barrydidit]

Still not arrived.

[darmstadt]

Arrived, thought it was quite concise and to the point:

[vetran]

Arrived, thought it was quite concise and to the point:

look forward to similar spoof with juncker, Merkel etc.

at least we can vote those 5 out.

[darmstadt]

look forward to similar spoof with juncker, Merkel etc.

at least we can vote those 5 out.

Well you can't can you as apparently the EU is am undemocratic organisation so they never got voted in

[vetran]

Well you can't can you as apparently the EU is am undemocratic organisation so they never got voted in

I cannot vote for Merkel or Juncker unless I change citizenship or they decide to stand for election in the UK. Therefore as far as I am concerned they have no democratic mandate from me.

Sorry if you EuroPervs can't understand that. The fact the president may be selected by civil servants and voted for by some MEPs is hardly democratic.

[darmstadt]

I cannot vote for Merkel or Juncker unless I change citizenship or they decide to stand for election in the UK. Therefore as far as I am concerned they have no democratic mandate from me.

Sorry if you EuroPervs can't understand that. The fact the president may be selected by civil servants and voted for by some MEPs is hardly democratic.

Sorry if you BrexitPrevs don't know how the President is elected...by national leaders (heads of state or government of EU countries) who were elected by the population of their country therefore have their mandate by proxy, with the approval of the European Parliament who consists of MEPs, once again elected by the populace of their relevant country therefore having their best interests at heart, possibly. And I thought Project FEAR was FUD

[Scruff]

I'm collecting a pile of junk mail. Once large enough, I'll mail it back to No. 10 along with the offers of credit cards, Virgin media and water softener offers.

[jamesbrown]

Sorry if you BrexitPrevs don't know how the President is elected...by national leaders (heads of state or government of EU countries) who were elected by the population of their country therefore have their mandate by proxy, with the approval of the European Parliament who consists of MEPs, once again elected by the populace of their relevant country therefore having their best interests at heart, possibly. And I thought Project FEAR was FUD

To note that the EU is an aggregation of democracies is to state the obvious. The question is about the degree of accountability, or distance from the electorate, and the extent to which (and where) powers are distributed for a national vs. collective benefit. It is about the balance between these things and, self-evidently, our voice within a supranational body, communicated by MEPs with a very weak, national, mandate (on the basis of voter turnout), is strongly diluted when compared to the mandate given to our own MPs. You may not like others coming to a different view on this balance, but it's facile to paint democracy at the national and supranational levels as comparable things. Within the EU, the balance has moved, and will continue to move, in the wrong direction, and this will have deeply regrettable outcomes for national democracies in the long-run when voters (over-)react.

[darmstadt]

To note that the EU is an aggregation of democracies is to state the obvious. The question is about the degree of accountability, or distance from the electorate, and the extent to which (and where) powers are distributed for a national vs. collective benefit. It is about the balance between these things and, self-evidently, our voice within a supranational body, communicated by MEPs with a very weak, national, mandate (on the basis of voter turnout), is strongly diluted when compared to the mandate given to our own MPs. You may not like others coming to a different view on this balance, but it's facile to paint democracy at the national and supranational levels as comparable things. Within the EU, the balance has moved, and will continue to move, in the wrong direction, and this will have deeply regrettable outcomes for national democracies in the long-run when voters (over-)react.

Basically you've just summed up the indifference the UK has to the EU, maybe if there wasn't this indifference (and ignorance), then the UK might have had a stronger voice in how the EU is run...

[jamesbrown]

Basically you've just summed up the indifference the UK has to the EU, maybe if there wasn't this indifference (and ignorance), then the UK might have had a stronger voice in how the EU is run...

We have an above-average level of indifference, but not dramatically so. See here and note the systematic decline over time. There's increasing indifference to the EU as a democratic vehicle, and this is not in proportion to the powers it has secured. I'd venture that, in a majority of member states, it has a democratic mandate for the single-market and little else. Unfortunately, the single market has always been a Trojan Horse for wider ambitions.