Official EU referendum thread. Thursday June 23rd,

[jamesbrown]

We know what IN means.

We know what it has meant. Consider the two pillars of the European project. A Eurozone that lacks the fiscal and political integration to sustain a single currency and remain globally competitive. The Eurozone is in a debt deflationary spiral, with economic stagnation and unemployment baked in for decades, absent massive structural reforms. Does anyone seriously believe that a few warm words and a promise of treaty change in 5-10 years will spare the UK from such reforms (assuming they are pursued, which seems unlikely)? A free travel zone, the Schengen, that has revealed itself to be utterly incapable of policing its external borders. Does anyone seriously believe that the Schengen will survive in its current form?

The EU is facing multiple existential crises, from a chronic lack of competitiveness to an acute crisis of inward migration. The response has been utterly inadequate and, at the same time, enlightening. Germany and Sweden have U-turned on their liberal immigration policies within a matter of months. Italy is propping-up its banks in blatant violation of the new bail-in rules. Austria is about to impose restrictions (against international law) on asylum applications. Hungary is surrounding itself in razor-wire and Greece threatened to explode the Brexit deal unless they relented.

The EU is structurally flawed. It is a loose agglomeration of countries that are politically and economically irreconcilable. Inevitably, under pressure, they are increasingly pursuing their own national interests.

Let's not pretend that the EU offers any more certainty than Brexit.

[xoggoth]

The EU is structurally flawed. It is a loose agglomeration of countries that are politically and economically irreconcilable

It's a big pity it has all been rushed through by the idealists, if only they had been prepared to go much more slowly and take account of real problems, gradually removing border controls as economies got more into line for example, the EU could have been a darn good thing.

[darmstadt]

It's a big pity it has all been rushed through by the idealists, if only they had been prepared to go much more slowly and take account of real problems, gradually removing border controls as economies got more into line for example, the EU could have been a darn good thing.

They have, sometimes: Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Romania, Ireland and the United Kingdom still have border controls. Are these countries that the EU think haven't got their economies under control

[jamesbrown]

It's a big pity it has all been rushed through by the idealists, if only they had been prepared to go much more slowly and take account of real problems, gradually removing border controls as economies got more into line for example, the EU could have been a darn good thing.

Yes, at the very least, it could've worked better, but the project became more important than the outcomes, and it's now beyond saving. The EU is a fair-weather union, and the weather isn't fair.

[scooterscot]

Personally I'm still waiting to see either an official or at least a comprehensive manifesto of some sort by the out crowd as to what the plans for the UK will be after a Brexit. So far all I've seen and read is a lot of hot air, random nutters preaching and a lot of disagreement, not only between the different out groups, but also within themselves which makes me think that they actually have none, they just want to leave the EU because they're just bloody minded cretins....

It nuts isn't it?

The Scottish referendum white paper was comprehensive. There's nothing like this at the minute.

We're steam rolling into a huge misinformed vote. General elections have more preparation.

[MicrosoftBob]

Voting out is not the same as actually leaving the EU.

Even with an out majority, this govt would not actually leave, it is 100% Europhile govt. The vote would be disregarded. Only UKIP would leave and they will never be in a majority govt.

True the EU would force us to vote repeatedly until we voted the right way, but like Ireland the amount of bribes would make it worthwhile

It's a no lose scenario, unlike voting yes where we just confirm our desire to strength the EUSSR under Putins sleeper that Merkel woman

[VectraMan]

It's a big pity it has all been rushed through by the idealists, if only they had been prepared to go much more slowly and take account of real problems, gradually removing border controls as economies got more into line for example, the EU could have been a darn good thing.

That's fair, but there are non-EU countries in Schengen and EU countries not in Schengen. The EU is not Schengen, and the UK leaving the EU makes no difference to our non-Schengen status and neither does it effect the negatives of Schengen.

Don't forget that most EU countries implemented a six year cap on migration from Eastern European countries. The democratically elected government of the UK decided not to. This wasn't forced on us by the EU.

[darmstadt]

That's fair, but there are non-EU countries in Schengen and EU countries not in Schengen. The EU is not Schengen, and the UK leaving the EU makes no difference to our non-Schengen status and neither does it effect the negatives of Schengen.

Don't forget that most EU countries implemented a six year cap on migration from Eastern European countries. The democratically elected government of the UK decided not to. This wasn't forced on us by the EU.

I really wouldn't bother stating any facts, Brexit'ers have made their mind up regardless of any well reasoned or truthful arguments. They're like a little kid in a sweet shop having a tantrum because they're not allowed any even though they know they're not good for them

[AtW]

Don't forget that most EU countries implemented a six year cap on migration from Eastern European countries. The democratically elected government of the UK decided not to. This wasn't forced on us by the EU.

Well exactly! Most supposedly EU problems are due to incompetence and/or intention of UK Govt, which then conveniently blames EU, which is yet another reason for them not to leave - they'd lose such a good excuse!

[m0n1k3r]

Who'll pay for it?

The EU infrastructure fund.