Another aspect to immigration

[darmstadt]

United Europe has been tried many times From Jean Jacques Burnel's (Stranglers bassist) solo album, Euroman Cometh (which contains the rather interesting Deutschland Nicht Über Alles), the inner sleeve:

[vetran]

That's pretty scary. To tell me that as an individual, my own life isn't my own - that I somehow owe part of it to the collective - made up of other people that I don't even know, let alone have some obligation toward.

Welcome to civilisation. Those that contribute frequently pay for people who can't and therefore don't enjoy the full amount of their success. Its normal.

Out of curiosity if you feel you have an ultimate right to self determination why do you find that so hard to extend to a country?

[vetran]

The answer to your question Xog is that the use of cheap foreign labour impoverishes the host countries workforce , makes a minority rich and open borders sometimes lead to better conditions for the poorer countries because in the process of being exploited they still see their overall value rise.

and yes we apologised for stealing trained nurses from the Philippines. Makes you sad to be British.

[Paddy]

Romania: The EU’s Largest Receiver of Remittances (written in 2011)

It is political. The Romanian government is fervently pro US and EU and they have made enormous economic sacrifices to be so. In contrast their neigbour; Bulgaria is poorer and the EU have withheld grants and increased their contribution mainly because the former government upset the US by banning fracking and having contracts for Russian gas.

[lilelvis2000]

Why do we have borders anyway. All this fake nationalism. If all the welfare crap globally was dropped and then dropped borders I bet things would work out quite well. farmers would have cheap and productive labour and I could move to Australia.

[AtW]

It is political. The Romanian government is fervently pro US and EU and they have made enormous economic sacrifices to be so. In contrast their neigbour; Bulgaria is poorer and the EU have withheld grants and increased their contribution mainly because the former government upset the US by banning fracking and having contracts for Russian gas.

Sounds like very good policies.

[SpontaneousOrder]

Out of curiosity if you feel you have an ultimate right to self determination why do you find that so hard to extend to a country?

I'm not sure if you mean something else by 'extend to a country'. But there is no such thing as a country - it's just an abstraction describing a collective of individuals.

With that being the case, if individuals have an ultimate right to self determination then it can't possibly make any sense to describe a collective of those individuals as having an ultimate right to self-determination - unless every one of those individuals happen to agree in every aspect of their personal preferences.

Is that the question you were asking? If so the reason I find it so hard is because it's a logical contradiction - and contradictions don't exist.

[vetran]

I'm not sure if you mean something else by 'extend to a country'. But there is no such thing as a country - it's just an abstraction describing a collective of individuals.

you think the borders and governments are a figment of you imagination?

[SpontaneousOrder]

Why do we have borders anyway. All this fake nationalism. If all the welfare crap globally was dropped and then dropped borders I bet things would work out quite well. farmers would have cheap and productive labour and I could move to Australia.

Exactly. 90% of al the problems argued about here are of 'our' own invention.

Immigration is only an issue because of welfare state (immigrants arguably cost us, plus without that safety net there would be less incentive for foreigners to come over willy-nilly - if cultural / racial aspect is important).

NHS related arguments is about smoking/obesity/etc only exist because of the welfare state. With universal healthcare entitlements you can't black-list fatties without smokers. Then you have to look at drug users. Then you have to look at dangerous sports. Then you have to look at exercise levels. Plusy anything else that comes down to personal lifestyle choice.
This is what markets exist for - to allow people to choose the level of risk they are willing to pay for.

It's like my father who needs drugs for his heart, and other drugs for the side-effects of the first lot of drugs, and other drugs for the side-effects of that second lot, etc etc.

[SpontaneousOrder]

you think the borders and governments are a figment of you imagination?

Did you miss the bit where I described what they are?

it's just an abstraction describing a collective of individuals.