What happened to bobbification and outsourcing?

[lilelvis2000]

Been wondering about this a lot recently - perm salaries have gone through the roof for developers, genuine roles for say .net developers around 45-50k in the north west?!

Like where? all I see are jobs for senior .net programmers going for £30-35k! I just got an email for job at £35k

I have a friend of mine who owns a company and he can't find any half decent .net developers for 45k. I have tried asking my contacts if they would be interested (including some past colleagues from Lithuania) and they won't even move here for effectively doubling their income. Then I look online and see that the average salary is 27,000....

Does IT really pay that well even for non-specialists?

Are the good times coming back or perhaps they are already? I know for sure that I won't be leaving this company until they won't need me anymore as the rate is more than I could have ever imagined when I started contracting nearly 5 years ago....

Perhaps, I do see more opening being advertised and agents chasing me up. Though I have told some that £35k is a joke of a salary ask.

[lilelvis2000]

I think it is rather naive to think the huge number of onshore and offshore IT outsourcing has not had a dramatic effect on contract and perm jobs and pay.

Where I work it is pretty much all now onshore Indian ICT workers and offshore Indian support staff. 10 years ago there, everything was done by UK contractors and permies, they have all been "let go". There is almost zero demand for UK IT workers there now. They have over 70,000 employees so it's no small operation.

The Indian outsourcing companies have taken over development, business processes, testing, support, consultancy, DBA everything top to bottom.

I think there's less than 10 IT contractors there now, sorting out all the tulip the IT outsourcers produce. It's a very busy and frustrating process.

Without the ICT and govt support for offshoring, there would be hundreds of IT positions there, if not 1000's.

Who would fill them? the UK doesn't produce that many IT graduates anymore. Possibly because the starting salaries aren't go great anymore. averaging about £27,500. I worked with some managment accountancy grads and they were on £35k which soon got bumped up to £50k. My manager was on £93k - he being a music grad who then took some accountancy courses.

You see stuff like that and you only go into IT because you love the job..you ain't in it for the money.

[mudskipper]

Ex-client Co outsourced a lot of their development. It was a very painful experience - they have now ditched the outsourcer and set up their own company in Chennai so that the guys work for them which removes a lot of the pain. I'm told it's going pretty well, but recruitment can be tough as the Indians want to work for a big name consultancy, not an itty bitty outfit.

[vetran]

If you develop all your software in the UK, then it becomes too expensive and you can't compete, and you go out of business.

In the end this Telecom Software has to be sold globally against the competition who are doing the same thing.

In any case you can't stop companies buying software, in the same way you can't stop retailers importing cheap shirts from China, or force energy companies to buy expensive coal from UK pits, which are uneconomic.

you are rather missing the point, its just like the story of British aviation & nuclear power stations.

We led the world then aimed at our foot and emptied both barrels.

If we had built up IT competency in the UK we would have another service industry to compete with Finance.

we wouldn't need to stop people buying software from other countries they would be desperate to buy ours because it was the best.

We could still recover but it takes a positive and concerted effort from the government so we are screwed!

We have throw away our lead, deskilled and put most of our work abroad.

[Basil Fawlty]

You see stuff like that and you only go into IT because you love the job..you ain't in it for the money.

For the mid level skill-set that most contractors have, contracting in terms of financial reward is hard to beat. I've friends in accountancy, mechanical engineering, teaching, architecture, law and chartered surveying amongst other things and not one of them earns close to contracting rates in IB.

As for off-shoring, if I'm truly pragmatic about my experiences then I'd have to admit it has given me many many more opportunities than it has cost me. I know many folks who've been bobbed over the years, but they're all now in gainful employment both as contractors or perm.

[lilelvis2000]

Not sure the lead was thrown away, I suspect most of the brains at that time just moved to silicon valley. The USA just has a far far better investment environment because of the tax laws there encourage a lot of risk. Whereas here, HMRC just wants to open a new hole - IMHO.

[lilelvis2000]

For the mid level skill-set that most contractors have, contracting in terms of financial reward is hard to beat. I've friends in accountancy, mechanical engineering, teaching, architecture, law and chartered surveying amongst other things and not one of them earns close to contracting rates in IB.

As for off-shoring, if I'm truly pragmatic about my experiences then I'd have to admit it has given me many many more opportunities than it has cost me. I know many folks who've been bobbed over the years, but they're all now in gainful employment both as contractors or perm.

Contracting does earn more - I was commenting on perm-salaries. Though I've seen some accountants on £1500 a day! and barristers on £350/hr. so Comparing a contracting rate to a perm salary isn't entirely fair.

[vetran]

Contracting does earn more - I was commenting on perm-salaries. Though I've seen some accountants on £1500 a day! and barristers on £350/hr. so Comparing a contracting rate to a perm salary isn't entirely fair.

neither of those are likely to be permies, they will either be partners or via their own ltd yet HMRC doesn't shaft them.

[vetran]

Not sure the lead was thrown away, I suspect most of the brains at that time just moved to silicon valley. The USA just has a far far better investment environment because of the tax laws there encourage a lot of risk. Whereas here, HMRC just wants to open a new hole - IMHO.

I had started diversifying I had two subbies and we were starting to make money just not enough for us to live on, my contracting income was subsidising it. I sort of folded and took a permie job to put food on the table when I was bobbed.....I coulda been a contender

Many of the brains did move away because of tax but also the complete lack of support for the industry may have had a little to do with it.

[SueEllen]

neither of those are likely to be permies, they will either be partners or via their own ltd yet HMRC doesn't shaft them.

You don't shaft the people who can make your life hell or can end working for you. Though they do try....