Does control influence whether an engagement is one of for service or of service ?

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Lisa, it would be very a very arrogant position for an individual to take the position that their opinion carries more weight than those of the individuals who have spent a lifetime earning the privilege to hold the positions they hold, having been the presiding judge of this particular case and who was the individual who had to make the decision based on all of the information that was presented to them.

The judges ruling is in the public domain, should you wish to obtain a copy, then do so.

As I have said many times before, I am not trying to convince you of anything. You can choose to believe what you want to believe, many people do, but I respect their right to hold any beliefs even if I do not believe in the same things.

All I am doing is bringing to your attention the relevant rulings, you can draw your own conclusions as have I. I have put my opinions out for all to see and I am still waiting for my logic and position to be challenged with fact and/or case law. Despite this, you can continue to still hold whatever views you so wish and then construct your contracts accordingly to those beliefs, as will I.

Despite much searching online I cannot find the trial transcript for your case - I am genuinely interested as it may have ramifications for the industry but at the moment we only have your view - the trial transcript would enable a more enlightened discussion. Perhaps you have a link? If you don't want to put it online then you could PM me?

As I said my opinion so far is only based on what you have said and what I have read in the Accenture case - IANAL and wouldn't pretend to have superior knowledge to a Judge - I am not questioning their rulings, merely your interpretation of the relevance to IR35

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Never apologise.

[Old Greg]

I think it may even be a banning offence.

[craig1]

Despite much searching online I cannot find the trial transcript for your case - I am genuinely interested as it may have ramifications for the industry but at the moment we only have your view - the trial transcript would enable a more enlightened discussion. Perhaps you have a link? If you don't want to put it online then you could PM me?

As I said my opinion so far is only based on what you have said and what I have read in the Accenture case - IANAL and wouldn't pretend to have superior knowledge to a Judge - I am not questioning their rulings, merely your interpretation of the relevance to IR35

It's an absolute rarity that criminal case transcripts or detailed judgements get issued as public documents unless one of the parties does their own transcribing and independent publication, the official case outcome is only "guilty" or "not guilty". The reason is that because the level of proof is so heavily biased in favour of the defendant, and that the cases are predominantly fact based rather than law based, that they make abysmal reference material; also the interests of justice demand precise black/white answers on guilt rather than shades of grey like you'll get in civil cases. The only time criminal cases tend to become precedents is if the defendant is found guilty and they appeal on grounds of law to an appelate court.

Also, contrary to another point that I kept on forgetting to make, the BIS couldn't appeal, they can't, they'd need exceptional grounds bordering on near national importance to persuade the Attorney General to allow them to appeal a "not guilty" verdict and invoke "double jeopardy". They can't even query any errors in law. In fact, the judge could have said in judgement "I don't care about the facts or the law, I'm dismissing the case because the defence barrister is hot and has promised me a quickie if I decide for her" and they STILL wouldn't be able to appeal, the judge might get sacked but they couldn't alter his decision except in very, very limited circumstances.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

It's an absolute rarity that criminal case transcripts or detailed judgements get issued as public documents unless one of the parties does their own transcribing and independent publication, the official case outcome is only "guilty" or "not guilty". The reason is that because the level of proof is so heavily biased in favour of the defendant, and that the cases are predominantly fact based rather than law based, that they make abysmal reference material; also the interests of justice demand precise black/white answers on guilt rather than shades of grey like you'll get in civil cases. The only time criminal cases tend to become precedents is if the defendant is found guilty and they appeal on grounds of law to an appelate court.

Also, contrary to another point that I kept on forgetting to make, the BIS couldn't appeal, they can't, they'd need exceptional grounds bordering on near national importance to persuade the Attorney General to allow them to appeal a "not guilty" verdict and invoke "double jeopardy". They can't even query any errors in law. In fact, the judge could have said in judgement "I don't care about the facts or the law, I'm dismissing the case because the defence barrister is hot and has promised me a quickie if I decide for her" and they STILL wouldn't be able to appeal, the judge might get sacked but they couldn't alter his decision except in very, very limited circumstances.

I thought that was the case which is why I can't understand that he keeps saying it's a matter of public record

[TheFaQQer]

Have you considered a career with the BIS ? I kept giving them the same answer and they chose not to take it either. More fool them.

Firstly, it would not be my sole decision, any contract alteration would have to go to board approval. Secondly, I would have impressed upon the client, should it be necessary, the potential risks the client faces, I would explain to the contractor the potential risks that they may then face, then I would explain to the board the potential risk that the intermediary faces.

The board would then make their decision as to what they would do.

Yes/no questions might work for issues like pregnancy but complex issues can not be reduced to the same extent.

The reason I'm asking the question is to determine whether it's worth my while in even responding to the emails that I get from OracleContractors.com - if you aren't going to provide me with a contract that we can agree on (which is certainly what you imply), then there is no point in wasting each other's time when you find a role.

Since you've sort of answered that now, at least I know where to file the emails

[Rory Dwyer]

It's an absolute rarity that criminal case transcripts or detailed judgements get issued as public documents unless one of the parties does their own transcribing and independent publication, the official case outcome is only "guilty" or "not guilty". The reason is that because the level of proof is so heavily biased in favour of the defendant, and that the cases are predominantly fact based rather than law based, that they make abysmal reference material; also the interests of justice demand precise black/white answers on guilt rather than shades of grey like you'll get in civil cases. The only time criminal cases tend to become precedents is if the defendant is found guilty and they appeal on grounds of law to an appelate court.

Also, contrary to another point that I kept on forgetting to make, the BIS couldn't appeal, they can't, they'd need exceptional grounds bordering on near national importance to persuade the Attorney General to allow them to appeal a "not guilty" verdict and invoke "double jeopardy". They can't even query any errors in law. In fact, the judge could have said in judgement "I don't care about the facts or the law, I'm dismissing the case because the defence barrister is hot and has promised me a quickie if I decide for her" and they STILL wouldn't be able to appeal, the judge might get sacked but they couldn't alter his decision except in very, very limited circumstances.

She was ! but don't tell my wife I said that!

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

She was ! but don't tell my wife I said that!

So, in fact, the case is not in the public domain?

[Rory Dwyer]

So, in fact, the case is not in the public domain?

We'll the judgement is, there is no transcript, but of course I was there and so I know what was said. But you only really need the judges ruling which is in the public domain

[Rory Dwyer]

The reason I'm asking the question is to determine whether it's worth my while in even responding to the emails that I get from OracleContractors.com - if you aren't going to provide me with a contract that we can agree on (which is certainly what you imply), then there is no point in wasting each other's time when you find a role.

Since you've sort of answered that now, at least I know where to file the emails

I respect your right to choose.

I also didn't say what you implied I said. Anyway now that I am not taking any of the drugs that make me deluded, I am agreeing with you.