Convincing an MD to take me on as contract rather than perm

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I don't think the OP is confused at all (based on posting history).

Either the manager thinks that after 2 years they become a permie anyway, or that after 2 years they won't be able to claim expenses so might leave (hence them not being long-term players).

Couldn't have said it better myself. I explained that travel expenses is not an issue (particularly in this instance where I would be invoicing based on various locations around in the UK - not checked how this would work but I'm sure there is a legitimate way to arrange it).

[Antman]

Seeing as NLUK hasn't bitten, I'll ask. What about the IR35 implications of the arrangement you're seeking?

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

Seeing as NLUK hasn't bitten, I'll ask. What about the IR35 implications of the arrangement you're seeking?

Provided the contract is outside of IR35 and the working arrangement is too, is there any better way to do business? i.e. I am stipulating the contract, the clauses and the way I will be working. Better than going through agency i'd say?

[Bellona]

Just wondering if anybody has been faced with such a problem?

I have had a few conversations with an MD who is looking to increase his headcount but worried about the following things:

- HMRC and 24 month rule, also the idea of not being committed in the long-term
- Me feeling excluded because everybody else was perm
- Me acting different because of my different setup

I have tried explaining that being set-up as a business doesn't necessarily mean any of the above. The financial cost to the firm is pretty much the same and there are many benefits on their side as well (no redundancy pay, holiday/sick pay etc.)

Anybody else been faced with this scenario and how did you deal with it?

Your contract costs are 100% of time spent for days worked. Your employee costs include (but are not limited to) salary, ErNICs, management overhead, pension, SSP, healthcare, insurances, holidays and bank holidays, training, maternity provision and notice period provision....

If it was me I would answer....

HMRC and 24 month rule - applies to expenses ONLY and you have that covered - there is no automatic right to acquiring permie rights. As for being committed, you are as committed as the permie team, if not more so as the financial risks are all on your side.

Feeling excluded - you don't you are happy with the working relationship and there have been no problems on either side (assuming the latter part of the statement is true )

Acting different - the only difference could depend on whether you are in or out of IR35 (direction etc) but otherwise as per point above.

Then I would point out the cost benefits per Malvio's post.

If this doesn't tick all his boxes then you are in the lap of the gods

* I see others jumped in whilst I was typing : ), + 1 to all theirs

[northernladuk]

I know very well the 24 month rule my friend - That was confusion on the other side with how contractors are seen as short-termists...

Wonder which contractors give them that idea ;-)

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

Wonder which contractors give them that idea ;-)

Not the one that just completed an 18 month assignment with you know who, that's for sure!

[northernladuk]

Provided the contract is outside of IR35 and the working arrangement is too, is there any better way to do business? i.e. I am stipulating the contract, the clauses and the way I will be working. Better than going through agency i'd say?

I can't see how the relationship in this case can be outside IR35 He wants a long term head, you convince him to bill you differently but the actual working practices are the same. The fact he doesn't understand contractors leads me to believe he will expect to treat you the same as his staff e.g. D&C. You RoS will be a joke and there will be an expectation to give you more work so MoO. HMRC will crucify you if they go talk to the client. Can't see how this can be inside at all. To the client you are a permie in the guise of a contractor.

[Antman]

Provided the contract is outside of IR35 and the working arrangement is too, is there any better way to do business? i.e. I am stipulating the contract, the clauses and the way I will be working. Better than going through agency i'd say?

It's a lot better than going through an agency! However I'm sure HMRC might not take such a view. I saw in the news that they are after BBC stars who work in this way, looking for their pound of flesh I'll bet. If the MD wants you for a long time and is worried about you appearing different to the other permies then I might be a bit worried.

But if you're on top on the IR35 angle then you probably have a much tighter defence by default than others who have been audited.

I'd be interested to find out how it goes.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I can't see how the relationship in this case can be outside IR35 He wants a long term head, you convince him to bill you differently but the actual working practices are the same. The fact he doesn't understand contractors leads me to believe he will expect to treat you the same as his staff e.g. D&C. You RoS will be a joke and there will be an expectation to give you more work so MoO. HMRC will crucify you if they go talk to the client. Can't see how this can be inside at all. To the client you are a permie in the guise of a contractor.

That's not how the working practices will work. The Client will need to be aware of the differences..... Especially those ones that HMRC will come after him with.

Point taken though - these will need to be clarified with them before agreeing to any assignment.

[DirtyDog]

Not the one that just completed an 18 month assignment with you know who, that's for sure!

Lord Voldemort is hiring?