Muppet IR35 question - are they making me disguised employee or am I being rude?

[NotSaying]

Hi guys,

I've been lurking for a while, but have been urged to sign up due to a sudden change in situation.

I've been with client co. over 9 months, and on 2nd renewal. Previously I have been accountable only to people on the project my company has been brought in to work on. Today I learnt that in the recent reorg. I also have a functional manager.

I have an introduction meeting first thing tomorrow. To me this stinks of perm - why do I need management beyond the project I am contracted to work on?

My question is - should I go with the flow or should I be querying the relevance of this new line management?

My understanding of the subject is that this is a serious red flag - but in reality do people put up with this stuff?

Thanks for any advice

p.s. no I'm not cut out to be a contractor BUT I AM ONE

[Gonzo]

Muppet answer coming up!

On its own I wouldn't be concerned. Your client is spending a load of cash on the services being supplied so it should not really be a surprise that they want to monitor that.

If they start expecting to be able to give you things to do that are not covered in the schedule of work that is in your contract then that is the time to get worried from an IR35 perspective.

[NotSaying]

Thanks Gonzo.

I think there is going to be an issue - I suspect management don't see the difference between contractors and permanent (what gave it away? - someone quite senior said to me "there's not much difference between contractors and employees here") - but you've calmed me down into not overreacting to my new line management.

I'll wait and see if my meeting today references non-project objectives, career development etc. But I'll go in with an open mind and check who is going to sign off my timesheets - I think that's about all I need from line management!

[NotAllThere]

... someone quite senior said to me "there's not much difference between contractors and employees here...

To which you replied.

"Is that a good idea? Not that I'd do it ever, but if you don't keep the two roles quite distinct you could find some contractor troublemaker angling for employment rights".

[Rabotnik]

I think most people don't actually make any distinction between employees and contractors, and have no idea about IR35. In my previous (1st) contract, everyone laughed at me when I said I wouldn't go to staff activities or the staff xmas party due to IR35 - when I explained it to them they thought I would never get investigated so who cares. There were also a few long time contractors there who were blatantly inside IR35, but they were not concerned at all about getting caught

I went to 2 interviews yesterday, and both saw me as just another guy to add to the team - I asked what the deliverables were, or what they specifically wanted me for, and both were quite fuzzy on it. They basically needed additional resource for all the work they had. The one interview also asked me stupid organisational questions, like "what cultural challenges might they have now that they have merged companies?". I don't care, just tell me what you want me to build!

For the 2nd interview, the agent kept trying to sell it to me like a permanent role, saying what a great company it was to to work for, and how they wouldn't just kick me out after 6 months. And at the actual interview it was like a permie interview, loads of non-technical questions. The agent seems quite seasoned as well, he's placed a load of contractors there (or so he claims...), so I don't know why he didn't see me as being needed for a specific task there.

Are we all mugs for fussing about IR35? Sounds like people just want to pay us differently to permanent employees, but still see us as employees (based on my limited experience).

[NotAllThere]

Many organisations have clear distinctions between contractors and permies - mainly to avoid the aforesaid danger of claiming employment rights.

[nomadd]

Many organisations have clear distinctions between contractors and permies - mainly to avoid the aforesaid danger of claiming employment rights.

But, I.M.H.E(xperience), that usually only boils down to "we boot contractors out the door after 12 or 24 months".

In terms of "working practices", clients usually want you to "turn a hand to anything - whatever is the most pressing task on the day. After all, you're a contractor, aren't you?"

And that's where the danger and the slippery slope lies - in making sure you stick firmly to the working practices agreed up-front.

Like one of the previous posters, I recently attended an interview where they weren't even prepared to discuss "The Project" or what "The Role" on it was; those very questions drew bemused/confused stares from them. Needless to say we made no real progress in that interview.

Ah, the joys of contracting.

[Rabotnik]

But, I.M.H.E(xperience), that usually only boils down to "we boot contractors out the door after 12 or 24 months".

In terms of "working practices", clients usually want you to "turn a hand to anything - whatever is the most pressing task on the day. After all, you're a contractor, aren't you?"

And that's where the danger and the slippery slope lies - in making sure you stick firmly to the working practices agreed up-front.

Like one of the previous posters, I recently attended an interview where they weren't even prepared to discuss "The Project" or what "The Role" on it was; those very questions drew bemused/confused stares from them. Needless to say we made no real progress in that interview.

Ah, the joys of contracting.

This is what I was confused about, I thought contractors were supposed to have a specific deliverable, and if they just took anything the client dished out then they were under direction and control. But it appears that both my interviews were successful, so do I take one of the gigs and get paid for the next 6+ months, or do I say "No I will never sacrifice my beautiful IR35 ideals!"

Maybe I can get them to find me something specific to put on the contract, but most likely it will change in practice and the contract will be worthless for defence.

[psychocandy]

Many organisations have clear distinctions between contractors and permies - mainly to avoid the aforesaid danger of claiming employment rights.

yeh. To be honest, Im not too bothered about whether the client wants to include me as part of the team of whatever as long as I'm listed as a contractor.

With my client, they like to stick people in teams regardless and put them on org charts but every time they list them as contractors which suits me. Same with email adress, company directory, swipe badges - differentiate contractors which is fine as far as I;m concerned.

[nomadd]

This is what I was confused about, I thought contractors were supposed to have a specific deliverable, and if they just took anything the client dished out then they were under direction and control. But it appears that both my interviews were successful, so do I take one of the gigs and get paid for the next 6+ months, or do I say "No I will never sacrifice my beautiful IR35 ideals!"

Maybe I can get them to find me something specific to put on the contract, but most likely it will change in practice and the contract will be worthless for defence.

All absolutely correct.

And any "contract review", "IR35 insurance", etc. will be equally worthless if the actual working practices don't conform precisely - which they rarely do. See the other recent thread we've had around this very area (and the other one million threads before it... )

The reality is that we as contractors rarely get to dictate and maintain terms so precisely across the entire duration of a contract - irrespective of what one or two posters around here would have you believe (or those organisations trying to sell you something in the myth that it will ultimately protect you from the Inland Revenue.) You simply have to be pragmatic and see how "close to the wind" you are sailing on a contract - both it's paperwork and it's actual working practices - and then make a call on how likely you think it is the IR will investigate and chase you through the courts. For a short six-month'er like this, I think there is little (but not zero) chance of ever being chased through the courts by the IR, so simply take the role and try to minimise your IR35 exposure as much as possible. That's all you can reasonably do.