Outstanding Invoices & Umbrella's

[privateeye]

I think you'll find it is the agency which is holding things up.

True, but the brolly works for you and should have a method of protecting contractors against non-payment. I think some agencies take advantage of the brolly situation thinking contractors can't do anything legally to obtain the money. As I said before use a Garnishee order or threaten its use against the agency and you may be surprised at the results.

[Xtrain]

Who do you work for!

With a brolly you actually work for them rather than them for you. They should pay you regardless of them being paid legally but commercially that would be suicide as the agencies would use them as a factoring business.

So there is no point issuing anything to the agency on the legal side as there is no legal contract between you and them. You have to go via the brolly. The brolly will pay up if you shout long and hard enough as they are legally bound to do so. This may cost you, as you may have to take legal action and you will be up against a company with deeper pockets than you.

[privateeye]

So there is no point issuing anything to the agency on the legal side as there is no legal contract between you and them.

Thats what the agents want you to think - legally if the agent has not paid the umbrella and the umbrella cannot pay the contractor because the agent has not paid them - then YES you can still take action against the agent even if you do not have a contract with them. The Garnishee Order permits you to go to the route of the debt and not take it out on innocent party. I have successfully used a Garnishee Order against an agent.

[Denny]

What I don't understand is how umbrella companies can be deemed real businesses in the same way contractors are not deemed to be, if they too are operating on a virtually risk free basis. I thought the whole idea of being a real business is that they could lose money. Well, if a brolly will only pay out if their client pays them then surely their 'business status' is questionable.

The trouble with brollies is that they are in the pockets of agencies because they don't want to lose their referrals. As usual the contractor is the last one that counts.

That's why I don't use brollies that are recommended by agencies or any brolly that is affiliated with agency affiliated bodies like the PGC.

It's freelance or limited for me only.

[VectraMan]

What I don't understand is how umbrella companies can be deemed real businesses in the same way contractors are not deemed to be, if they too are operating on a virtually risk free basis. I thought the whole idea of being a real business is that they could lose money. Well, if a brolly will only pay out if their client pays them then surely their 'business status' is questionable.

It's a bit of a grey area as to what extent the contractor is "employed" by the umbrella. But the umbrellas do have their own permanent staff and premises, so it's not true to say there isn't a risk as they still have financial commitments to make even if no contractor earns any money.

[malvolio]

...big snip... affiliated with agency affiliated bodies like the PGC.

It's freelance or limited for me only.

For the last time, I think you'll find it's the other way round. Agencies want to be affiliated with the PCG, not vice versa. You may also find the PCG refuse any such applications from brollies and composites these days.

But as you say, use a Limited and do it properly. Brollies are strictly for those who can't (or won't!) think for themselves.

[Xtrain]

Brolly employee or not

It's a bit of a grey area as to what extent the contractor is "employed" by the umbrella. But the umbrellas do have their own permanent staff and premises, so it's not true to say there isn't a risk as they still have financial commitments to make even if no contractor earns any money.

If it is a PAYE umbrella then you are employed by the brolly. If composite or ltd them you are employed by the limited company or which ever composite company (e.g. Brookson467) you have been allocated.

Whoever employs you cannot withhold salary just because they themselves have not been paid and you are of course entitled to all normal employee rights (sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay, redundancy etc..).

[Mordac]

If it is a PAYE umbrella then you are employed by the brolly. If composite or ltd them you are employed by the limited company or which ever composite company (e.g. Brookson467) you have been allocated.

Whoever employs you cannot withhold salary just because they themselves have not been paid and you are of course entitled to all normal employee rights (sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay, redundancy etc..).

Right, let's get this straight. Parasol (or any other brolly) are not your employer. All they do is process your PAYE and expenses, and charge through the nose for it. You are a clueless ******* if you believe otherwise. You have no contract of employment with a brolly. What you will have (probably) signed up for is a contract to provide payroll processing services. You are not entitled to sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay, redundancy etc, and they are not obliged to pay you before they get paid.
Anything else you don't understand?

[Xtrain]

Anything else you don't understand/

Right, let's get this straight. Parasol (or any other brolly) are not your employer. All they do is process your PAYE and expenses, and charge through the nose for it. You are a clueless ******* if you believe otherwise. You have no contract of employment with a brolly. What you will have (probably) signed up for is a contract to provide payroll processing services. You are not entitled to sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay, redundancy etc, and they are not obliged to pay you before they get paid.
Anything else you don't understand?

Yes actually there is, why are you so stupid?

As a matter of FACT Parasol do employ you, you sign a contract of employment (definitely not probably!) with them (they email it to you when you register online) and they do pay sick pay. And i know this because I used them when I started contracting. Obviously you haven't used them and you don't know what you are talking about. I would imagine ALL PAYE brollys (i.e. non composite, not ltd) operate this way although I'm not sure as I haven't used any others.

Obviously the brollys don't advertise the sick pay etc.. stuff as it could cost them a fortune. Rather they rely on idiots like you to sprout this kind of rubbish.

Anything else you think you understand and don't?

[tim123]

Right, let's get this straight. Parasol (or any other brolly) are not your employer. All they do is process your PAYE and expenses, and charge through the nose for it. You are a clueless ******* if you believe otherwise. You have no contract of employment with a brolly. What you will have (probably) signed up for is a contract to provide payroll processing services. You are not entitled to sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay, redundancy etc, and they are not obliged to pay you before they get paid.
Anything else you don't understand?

I think that if a court were asked to decide they would ignore the small print and use the the duck test. The duck test suggest that you are wrong.

tim