Originally posted by Scrag Meister
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Yawn.... this bench is bl00dy uncomfortable
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Originally posted by TiroFijo View PostC#, C# plus - people still use that phish...?
And as regards that "C/C++ pish", there are 27 contracts on Jobserve at the moment in finance offering £500-700 / day for it.
And the "C# pish" has 40 contracts in finance offering £500-800 / day for it.
Not bad for "pish"
EDIT: And just to be clear, that's just the "top end" jobs. Overall, for C++ there are 247 active roles; for C# there are 514 active roles. And when you consider the subject of this thread is about being "stuck on the bench", I'm sure there are plenty of folks who presently would be happy with any of those 750+ roles.nomadd liked this postComment
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Originally posted by CheeseSlice View Postare you pished?nomadd liked this postComment
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Originally posted by nomadd View PostThink you are getting "C#" confused with C/C++ when you say are "people still use that phish...?" and quote a language that doesn't exist, "C# plus".
And as regards that "C/C++ pish", there are 27 contracts on Jobserve at the moment in finance offering £500-700 / day for it.
And the "C# pish" has 40 contracts in finance offering £500-800 / day for it.
Not bad for "pish"
EDIT: And just to be clear, that's just the "top end" jobs. Overall, for C++ there are 247 active roles; for C# there are 514 active roles. And when you consider the subject of this thread is about being "stuck on the bench", I'm sure there are plenty of folks who presently would be happy with any of those 750+ roles.
Talk it up...Comment
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[QUOTE=Boo;1297205]I presume you are being intentionally obtuse ? The fact of the matter is that agencies do not "protect the contractor from risk" as you said. In most cases the agency is the risk for the contractor and it is vapid to suggest that credit checking the agency is a solution to that risk : the solution to agencies' theivery is to cut the agency out of the chain.
Oh and in the meantime, you'll need 60 days of cashflow to even think about going direct.....
I didn't say credit checking was the answer - however, you can get insurance, which pays out assuming you have done your credit checks. Useable for agencies, and end clients.
No, the agency is the clients' agent. The agency is not the contractors' client
since the contractor and agency have no business relationship : the agency does not judge the contractors' work nor discuss the projects' progress,
The agent is a leech, pure and simple. If you want to see that the agent is a leech then try asking one if they are happy to bill the client for their work while letting the contractor go direct with the client. They will refuse
because the only way they can justify the sums they charge is by confusing the contractors' valuable output with the agencies' unjustifiable overhead and expense.
Pure invention : I have recently worked with one of the world's largest communications company and the only risk I saw was the guy sitting at the desk to my left lost money through an intermediary going bust.
More self-serving fabrication from the pen of the resident leech - there is no legal advantage for the client in using an agent compared to taking on a Ltd Co. contractor direct. Any liability that stops at the AgencyCo. would also stop at ContractorCo. and a big ("risk averse", remember ?) firm could certainly add tax/NI insurance to their comprehensive set of indemnities for far less than the leech's stupendous and wholly unearned margin
Several advantages.
1) amalgamated invoices. 1 invoice - multiple contractors.
2) Risk aversion - You'd be AMAZED at the tulip which can be laid at the door of agencies.
3) We do this, all day every day. A hiring manager doesn't know how to source the best skills, doesn't know how to network around, doesn't know how to negotiate to a budget (actually I take that back - they can probably cope with that).
They also don't have time to spend hours speaking to people about each opportunity, and cope with bob and his dog applying for every role in the universe.
Utter codswallop. You perform no more marketing than a barrow boy does for an individual chestnut. Leeches do nothing to market enhanced skills or capabilities, they put forward the cheapest contractor they can find at the highest margin they can "justify" and will do everything possible to prevent a better qualified contractor going forward at a higher rate if that is a lower margin for the agency.
30% of Nothing, is STILL nothing (or was last time I looked). The ONLY way to do this job, is to put forward the person who gets the job. That's the only time we ever make money.
If you were any goood at the services you provide then you would be able to charge the client without the contractor being involved in your "sales outsourcing".
The fact that clients will do everything possible to avoid paying a leech tells you what you are worth : nothing.
If a client had a choice between paying you, and not paying you, which do you think they'd take?
Do you see where I'm going with that?
Does that make every business in the country, and every contractor in the world worth nothing?
I think you might want to see a doctor.
£15k, huh ? Lets see now,
- 1 months advertising on Jobserve £250
- 4 hours of an HR bod's time to discard irrelevant CVs : £100
- 2 hours / month of a contract bookkeepers' time to process timesheets 2*3*£50 == £300
Total £650 per contractor == £1300 for the client to do the job in house. Max.
Training
Holidays
Sickness
Pension
NI
Money factoring
Electricity
IT
Incorrect placement
Referencing
Background checking
ID checking
Contract negotiation
Contract raising
Incidental expenses
.... oh yes, and the fact that in harsh economic climates, taking on additional headcount is a no no, especially for blue chip companies.
"in depth sales and negotiation skills" my fat hairy *rse. You put a job on jobserve then discard the no hopers on a tick-list basis then lie through your nose to all and sundry about the margin you are charging and the "poor availability" of well qualified candidates. There's no question the clients would do a better job themselves and would see better candidates if the leeches were not in the loop.
I've seen every single variation of in-house operation. There is alot of money in recruitment if you're good at it. If you're rubbish at it, you go and work in house.
The reason companies use leeches is kickbacks which go under various guises, like "referrals".
Your days are numbered as legislation like the bribary act comes into force and hard times force even HR executives to put their company's interests first."Being a permy is like being married, when there's no more sex on the cards....and she's got fat."
SlimRick
Can't argue with thatComment
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I see they are continuing to advertise this role - yet again.
Infrastructure Analyst Cardiff Contract IT Job
Server Infrastructure Analyst- Cardiff Cardiff Contract IT Job
Infrastructure Project Manager Cardiff Contract IT JobComment
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So much of this forum is TAV having arguments with contractors who dislike agents (also known as contractors).Comment
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Originally posted by The Agents View View PostWhich is fine, right up until the End user goes bust.
What happens in this world is the client pays the agency who then declines to respond to emails about missing payment, then goes bust leaving up to hundreds of unpaid contractors. The contracts with the clients are then bought up by the agencies' directors who start the same process of thievery all over again.
That's what happens in this world. How many contractors here have had clients go bust or have heard of clients going bust ? And how many have had / heard of intermediaries go bust ? Hmm ?
I repeat : the agency is the risk for a contractor.
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostOh and in the meantime, you'll need 60 days of cashflow to even think about going direct.
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostI didn't say credit checking was the answer
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostGet a business brain, and CREDIT CHECK your agents then
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostI take alot of time to do that. Not only does it expand my knowledge, but it also leads to new opportunities and pro-active selling gaps.
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostI do this all the time - it's called a margin only deal. It's not the preferred route of most clients, because it means multiple invoices to process. The only times it really gets used are when companies credit ratings are so low that even a "leech" can't afford the risk level.
Originally posted by The Agents View View Postthis is also part of the reason that contractors charge themselves out at such ridiculous levels - it's to cover the risk of something like that happening.
Originally posted by The Agents View View Post1) amalgamated invoices. 1 invoice - multiple contractors.
2) Risk aversion - You'd be AMAZED at the tulip which can be laid at the door of agencies.
3) We do this, all day every day. A hiring manager doesn't know how to source the best skills, doesn't know how to network around, doesn't know how to negotiate to a budget (actually I take that back - they can probably cope with that).
They also don't have time to spend hours speaking to people about each opportunity, and cope with bob and his dog applying for every role in the universe.
Originally posted by The Agents View View Post...The ONLY way to do this job, is to put forward the person who gets the job. That's the only time we ever make money.
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostOriginally posted by Boo View PostIf you were any goood at the services you provide then you would be able to charge the client without the contractor being involved in your "sales outsourcing".
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostHa! This is utterly hilarious. If I had a choice between paying Tesco for my shopping, and not paying them, which one do you think I'd take?
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostIf a client had a choice between paying you, and not paying you, which do you think they'd take?
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostDo you see where I'm going with that?
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostOriginally posted by Boo View Post£15k, huh ? Lets see now,
- 1 months advertising on Jobserve £250
- 4 hours of an HR bod's time to discard irrelevant CVs : £100
- 2 hours / month of a contract bookkeepers' time to process timesheets 2*3*£50 == £300
Total £650 per contractor == £1300 for the client to do the job in house. Max.
Training
Holidays
Sickness
Pension
NI
Money factoring
Electricity
IT
Incorrect placement
Referencing
Background checking
ID checking
Contract negotiation
Contract raising
Incidental expenses
The agent provides the value I described above : JS ads, CV sifting and (minimal) bookkeeping. Total cost to the client of providing that value for themselves £1300, max, for 2 contractors on 3 month contracts.
Out of the things you mention : training, holidays, sickness, pension, NI, money factoring, electricity, IT and incidental expenses are in tlhe loop only because an agency is in the loop, they cannot be used to justify the agency because they are a downside of using one.
Of the others, incorrect placement seems to be using agents mistakes to justify the presence of the agency in the loop ? Or else your incoherence has beaten me.
Of contract negotiation and contract raising the client still needs to do that, but has to do it with an agent instead of the contractor so the end result is nothing. Except that client can be caught by 2 contracts when there's an agent in the loop. And I would think that any client using the PCG contract would find the contract negotiation process a very short one.
So that leaves ID checking, reference and background checking. Which is true in principle, but agencies don't check my background (because I don't provide agencies with references) and ID checking is not seen by clients as a big issue IME - no client has ever asked to see my passport, and it would take them 2 minutes to do so if they ever did decide to do that.
Reference checking is a 10 minute phone call, ditto background checking.
In the financial and military sectors background checking is carried out by third parties the cost of which is either passed directly onto the client by the agency (not very likely) or else is instigated and borne directly by the client anyway (most likely).
So, all of what the agency performs is either overhead caused by having an agency in the loop in the first place, or unnecessarily additional to what the client does anyway, or included in the £1300 (for 2 off 3 month contracts) I quoted above.
And the figure you yourself quoted for an agency to do that "work" was more than £15000. Good value ? Not in my book,
Originally posted by The Agents View View PostI've given out 2 referral payments in 8 years. Both were for candidates I needed for a hard to fill job, and both went to the same person. I'd hardly call that bribery
BooLast edited by Boo; 15 March 2011, 10:04.Comment
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Enough. This is a professional forum. If you want to bicker - please take this to General. Thanks.Comment
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