They DO NOT need to hold a copy of your passport if you are opted out.

[nomadd]

MODS: Please kill this thread.

(And ban TAV while you're at it. Even though I have him on "ignore" anyhow.. )

[craig1]

The client's only defence is if they have seen the original document and taken a photocopy. If they've only received a copy, or they rely on the agency, they don't have a defence. So anything other than the client seeing the original and taking a copy themselves, is pointless. Clients, apparently, are asking for this service from agencies, and it doesn't help them in anyway. (except possibly they'll know when they check themselves that the candidate is entitled to work?).

Now, a client will never ask for the passport of, e.g. an Accenture employee. And technically, they don't need to check for a littlecontractor ltd employee. The client lawyers, however, feel there is more a risk with a one man company than with Accenture. This was the case when I was a hiring manager in a UK based multinational. The lawyers advised seeing the originals and taking copies for all contractors, employees and temps. But not largeco consultants.

But it was always "see originals, take copies". And we had to do it. Not pass it on to the agencies.

Banks have their own rules, I'm sure. I've only ever worked in service and manufacturing so my knowledge is based on that.

One very large law firm I know has a day-one check for contractors. New contractors operating their own Ltd Co are obliged to show original passports or other suitable identity document, indemnity insurance certificates, membership ID or certificate (for any professional society), VAT certificate and Cert of Incorporation. They also require an undertaking from an authorised signatory from the contractor's company (99.99% of time this is the contractor) that any "substitutes" under the contract will go through the same process before being allowed on the premises. Not sure of their umbrella co process.

If you refuse to follow that then you don't get your security badge and are rejected. If you don't have the documents with you then you're sent away until you can bring them.

Their reasoning is that the contractors may have unrestricted access to legally privileged documentation and they have to be able to identify anyone who is given such access as part of their regulatory regime. Without such checks, anyone suing the law firm may be able to claim that privilege does not apply and gain access to highly sensitive documents that they otherwise wouldn't.

They couldn't care less if you're an opted-out contractor, no documentation, no work.

[NotAllThere]

MODS: Please kill this thread.

(And ban TAV while you're at it. Even though I have him on "ignore" anyhow.. )

I'm a firm believer in giving people enough rope to hang themselves. While TAV's views are useful, I think he's done himself no favours on this thread.

One very large law firm I know has a day-one check for contractors. New contractors operating their own Ltd Co are obliged to show original passports or other suitable identity document, indemnity insurance certificates, membership ID or certificate (for any professional society), VAT ce....
They couldn't care less if you're an opted-out contractor, no documentation, no work.

Very interesting. And the point you wished to make is...?

[craig1]

Very interesting. And the point you wished to make is...?

... that if you go in with an attitude of "I'm an opted-out B2B contractor within my own limited company, you don't need to see my personal ID" then you automatically exempt yourself from every contract job like the one I described. They'll shrug then move onto the next contractor who will abide by their interpretations of their specific regulatory requirements.

[Ardesco]

If an agency has a copy of my company's certificate of registration and with that a signed letter from my company stating that all employees have been vetted and found to be legal to work in the UK why is that not good enough?

The blame lies squarely on my limited companies shoulders if somebody working for my company turns out to be an illegal immigrant.

When you take your car into the garage do you insist on taking a copy of the passport held by the mechanic who is going to work on your car? no you pay a company to provide a service and you expect them to keep their house in order. Why should it be any different when a company pays my company to provide a service?

If an agency wants to insist on seeing a passport before putting my forward that's fine, however to tell me that it is a legal requirement after I have started a gig and have been there for a period of time is going to result in me digging my heels in and educating them. It is never a legal requirement and making out that it is is deception.

[Wanderer]

When you take your car into the garage do you insist on taking a copy of the passport held by the mechanic who is going to work on your car?

The analogy would be that you rent your car to someone and you insist on seeing and taking a copy of their driving license and insurance certificate before they can drive it away.

[NotAllThere]

... that if you go in with an attitude of "I'm an opted-out B2B contractor within my own limited company, you don't need to see my personal ID" then you automatically exempt yourself from every contract job like the one I described. They'll shrug then move onto the next contractor who will abide by their interpretations of their specific regulatory requirements.

But the point of this thread is that most contracts in fact don't have a regulatory requirement, despite the insistance of the agencies and the clients (and their lawyers). So, yes, what you say is true, but kind of irrelevant.

[rd409]

The analogy would be that you rent your car to someone and you insist on seeing and taking a copy of their driving license and insurance certificate before they can drive it away.

No that is not correct analogy as well. There is a legal requirement as an owner of the car for you to make sure that the person behind the wheel has proper documents. Whereas there is no legal requirement for the agency to have a copy of my documents.

The correct analogy would be you taking a copy of passport for the energy meter reader whenever they turn up to take the reading. When your boiler stops working, you just call your insurer, and they send an engineer. Do you ever insist on taking or even seeing a copy of their certificates. I guess it would be a no.

And finally, from now, whenever an agent asks for a copy of my passport, I am going to ask for a copy of his passport as well. My ltd company has a policy of making sure, all the agents it deals with, comply with the regulations. Let me know if you think agents would be happy to comply.

[The Agents View]

No that is not correct analogy as well. There is a legal requirement as an owner of the car for you to make sure that the person behind the wheel has proper documents. Whereas there is no legal requirement for the agency to have a copy of my documents.

The correct analogy would be you taking a copy of passport for the energy meter reader whenever they turn up to take the reading. When your boiler stops working, you just call your insurer, and they send an engineer. Do you ever insist on taking or even seeing a copy of their certificates. I guess it would be a no.

And finally, from now, whenever an agent asks for a copy of my passport, I am going to ask for a copy of his passport as well. My ltd company has a policy of making sure, all the agents it deals with, comply with the regulations. Let me know if you think agents would be happy to comply.

We don't need to comply. We have jobs, you want jobs. No paperwork, no contract - no contract, no work. I struggle to believe that anyone would tell you that it's a legal requirement, it's not - but if the client wants us to check it, and you don't provide it, you're not working - it's that simple.

As for the boiler analogy - Personally, if my boiler breaks down and I need a new one etc, then yes, I do insist on seeing registration documents - it's illegal and risky to use a non Corgi registered installer.

[Wanderer]

MODS: Please kill this thread. (And ban TAV while you're at it. Even though I have him on "ignore" anyhow.. )

You will have to take him off your ignore list if you want to have the satisfaction of seeing him get banned.

Ahh, TAV is OK. I often disagree with his opinions but I think he does make a useful contribution to the forum.

I do think that we have to be careful not to launch into personal attacks though. Let's keep it clean, folks.