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    #51
    There's absolutely no need at all for 'employment businesses' to turn into contractor hired agencies by paying them to find work. The relationship as it stands should just be reflected in the terminologies and language used and the payment model to recruiters should reflect the true situation as well.

    The end clients are still the best to know what they need and when and should take the intitative when sourcing contractors and to do the paying. They just need to understand that contractors are not 'supplied' services of the recruiter if they are 'limiteds' and that only introductions are made by the recruiter off their own hard (well it would be if they were paid) work that is currently unpaid for by clients in lieu of the mark-up fees they currently get when contractors are already on site. All fees to the recruiter should be two fold - one fee for sourcing and forwarding CVs and one fee for a successful introduction (where the contractor is hired). These fees should be upfront and reflect how long the a contract lasts from the results of an introduction and should also include the recruitment body acting, as they currently do, as a payroll channel for the client and contractor for convenience.

    It's about getting it right to reflect the true legal situation as it currently stands, not making it different by turning the model around so that contractors pay agents. At the moment the model is already turned around in an absurd way because as far as the end client are concerned they use employment businesses to source candidates who in turn regard themselves to contractors as their unpaid agent by telling them they are 'finding them work' or 'found them a job'. Even end client representatives, when talking to contractors directly about anything, will say things like : well you need to speak to your agency about that. Hello? They aren't our agency, they're your employment business, you hired them to find me, you need my services otherwise you wouldn;t have bothered and yes, I would like my travel expenses paid for interviews considering you are offically sourcing and not me who is seeking (accept unofficially).

    If there are any problems with an agency contractors often run into another problem. At present, if you have any complaint about a recruiter the end client will immediately dissasociate themselves from the complainant by not addressing the issue directly to them and instead will promise to ring you back with an answer but will actually contact the same agency the contractor has complained about to deal with the complaint. How absurd is that? It's as if we don't exist as people or business representatives in our own right. In other words we're merely a distributed pair of shoes or a car that has no voice. Personally, I object to being compared and treated like an inanimate object.

    This whole situation as is currently stands is ludicrous and degrading for both recruiters (who aren't paid for what they do) and for us (who are treated like well paid slaves who have no rights or voice) and the only ones that ultimately suffer disporportionately are contractors who are manipulated by all parties involved in the recruitment process. But all lose out the way things currently stand.

    As I've said before, the only reason I use employment businesses to market myself is because my field and the organisations that need my services are all large FTSE100s and government departments who insist on recruiting through employment businesses. I do have private clients but could never get a decent income from using them alone.
    Last edited by Denny; 6 February 2006, 16:43.

    Comment


      #52
      Originally posted by DodgyAgent
      Could be a runner malvolio make it £4k and I will chuck a lunch in
      Hmmm... 13 weeks at £350 a day at 15% is £3412.50, at 5% is £1137.50, so the "recruitment" portion is £2275. Shall we split the difference and call it £3k? Anyway, that's mrely detail, the principle stands.

      BTW, think of the other USP. You can go to your client and undercut your rivals by a huge margin, can't you. All it takes is a B2B contract between agency and contractor...
      Blog? What blog...?

      Comment


        #53
        Originally posted by Denny
        As I've said before, the only reason I use employment businesses to market myself is because my field and the organisations that need my services are all large FTSE100s and government departments who insist on recruiting through employment businesses. I do have private clients but could never get a decent income from using them alone.
        Doesnt that tell you something? For example:

        Clients are not interested in your ego and any complaints that you may have surrounding your status. This is why the system works.
        They are not interested in arguing the toss over whether you think your travel expenses should be paid.

        Denny your whole default attitude is that contractors are somehow "victims" .
        Well I am afraid that you are not victims. You are highly paid so-called experts who carry out their work and bear no reponsibility for the quality of that work. I can think of far more deserving groups of people who have stronger claims to being victims (us recruitment agents for one). I am also quite sure that your fellow contractors would be dismayed at the thought of themselves being portrayed as such.
        Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

        Comment


          #54
          Originally posted by malvolio
          Hmmm... 13 weeks at £350 a day at 15% is £3412.50, at 5% is £1137.50, so the "recruitment" portion is £2275. Shall we split the difference and call it £3k? Anyway, that's mrely detail, the principle stands.

          BTW, think of the other USP. You can go to your client and undercut your rivals by a huge margin, can't you. All it takes is a B2B contract between agency and contractor...
          It may be appropriate for you make your commission a percentage based one on the basis that the agent should be incentivised to get you the highest rate possible.
          Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

          Comment


            #55
            Originally posted by malvolio
            Hmmm... 13 weeks at £350 a day at 15% is £3412.50

            Thats 15% mark up not margin - so 3412 isn’t really 15% -trying to do us agents out of money again!!! we have to put food on tables as well you know!

            Comment


              #56
              Your incentive is like any other deal: get me the best price for my product and your take is correspondingly higher. And equally I would look to the agency with the best proposition for commission, wouldn't I?
              Blog? What blog...?

              Comment


                #57
                Originally posted by DodgyAgent
                Doesnt that tell you something? For example:

                Clients are not interested in your ego and any complaints that you may have surrounding your status. This is why the system works.
                They are not interested in arguing the toss over whether you think your travel expenses should be paid.

                Denny your whole default attitude is that contractors are somehow "victims" .
                Well I am afraid that you are not victims. You are highly paid so-called experts who carry out their work and bear no reponsibility for the quality of that work. I can think of far more deserving groups of people who have stronger claims to being victims (us recruitment agents for one). I am also quite sure that your fellow contractors would be dismayed at the thought of themselves being portrayed as such.
                I never used the word victim but it is true we are readily exploited and abused by the current recruitment model and it also true that too many contractors are their own worst enemy because they've allowed this situation to occur by not taking action or solidarity to form a union to change the current set up. Fat lot of good the PGC are when they're clearly in the pockets of agencies.

                The system doesn't work well either. If contractors were so satisfied with the way the model currently works, then why is the recruitment industry so despised by so many? Why are clients so dissatisfied with the quality of candidates they get so often? Why aren't they prepared to pay for recruiter services? Why is it that recruiters employ every dodgy solicitor or legal consultancy out there to try and stitch contractors up with false information on IR35, terms and conditions that dump all the risks onto them? It all very well saying we're all highly paid experts - but let's examine the facts a bit closer shall we?

                FACT: Contractors are only highly paid when they're on high rates. Fact. Some contractors are merely paid pro-rate salary rates but still have the same terms and conditions that apply to all contractors.

                FACT: Contractors are only highly paid when they're in work. If the work is not there, then the rates aren't there either. What good is it for a contractor to be on £300 a day for 6 months and then find themselves out of work for another three because nothing else comes up or else they spend got knows how many times going to futile role interviews when the client hasn't even budgeted for the roles supposedly on offer? That makes it far less than £300 per day in the end. Contractors can only judge their fee rates according to what they make overall in an entire year.

                FACT: These so called high rates, as you call them, aren't so high when you consider that we have no employment rights, no pension, no sick pay, are subject to economic fluctuations more than permie counterparts and so on and can be laid off on a whim for the stupidist of reasons.

                Oh I forgot! THE MODEL DOES WORK. The market decides, the market chooses, the market judges. That's why you're all still here. Hmmmm..

                Hello market, how are you today? Did you have a nice weekend?

                Comment


                  #58
                  >to form a union to change the current set up

                  Denny, shut the f**k up. You're embarrassing. If you want to join a union, go and become a permie in the public sector. I don't ever want to see that word on this BB again. Even in jest.
                  His heart is in the right place - shame we can't say the same about his brain...

                  Comment


                    #59
                    by not taking action or solidarity to form a union to change the current set up. Fat lot of good the PGC are when they're clearly in the pockets of agencies
                    I can think of around 12,000 people who would dispute that assertion quite strongly. Feel free to complain nobody's doing anything, but get the facts straight first. Or do you think the PCG is merely an insurance agency?
                    Blog? What blog...?

                    Comment


                      #60
                      Originally posted by IT contract agent
                      Thats 15% mark up not margin - so 3412 isn’t really 15% -trying to do us agents out of money again!!! we have to put food on tables as well you know!
                      Quite right, victims they may be but they can be quite cute when they want to
                      Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

                      Comment

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