Working Hours

[Pogle]

Currently on a project where my contract states 37.5hrs a week.
I usually do slightly more - but that's my business and what I choose to do.
Due to incompetence (not mine or anyone in my team) and appalling proj management, we have some very tight deadlines coming up and have basically been asked (but not in writing) to work longer hours.
I spoke to my agency who said fine, just get it it agreed with permie PM.
I emailed Permie PM to get in writing what he was going to do about the extra hours - would he pay me the extra or paid 'time off'.

I got some waffle of a reply about working 'professional days' and expecting a certain amount of goodwill and team spirit.

This has pissed me off. I have worked 48hrs this week to get stuff done to meet an unrealistic deadline. And I expect more of this to come.

How would others handle it?

[malvolio]

Currently on a project where my contract states 37.5hrs a week.
I usually do slightly more - but that's my business and what I choose to do.
Due to incompetence (not mine or anyone in my team) and appalling proj management, we have some very tight deadlines coming up and have basically been asked (but not in writing) to work longer hours.
I spoke to my agency who said fine, just get it it agreed with permie PM.
I emailed Permie PM to get in writing what he was going to do about the extra hours - would he pay me the extra or paid 'time off'.

I got some waffle of a reply about working 'professional days' and expecting a certain amount of goodwill and team spirit.

This has pissed me off. I have worked 48hrs this week to get stuff done to meet an unrealistic deadline. And I expect more of this to come.

How would others handle it?

If you're paid by the hour it's not a problem. If you're paid by the day, there's not a hell of a lot you can do if the client won't play ball. (Then again, if you're paid by the day, why have you got a contract that states a set number of hours?). Day rate means you do any work for the client in any 24 hour period you charge them a set amount. That works for 23 hours every bit as well as it does for three; you can't have it both ways.

[SofaKingdom]

Currently on a project where my contract states 37.5hrs a week.
I usually do slightly more - but that's my business and what I choose to do.
Due to incompetence (not mine or anyone in my team) and appalling proj management, we have some very tight deadlines coming up and have basically been asked (but not in writing) to work longer hours.
I spoke to my agency who said fine, just get it it agreed with permie PM.
I emailed Permie PM to get in writing what he was going to do about the extra hours - would he pay me the extra or paid 'time off'.

I got some waffle of a reply about working 'professional days' and expecting a certain amount of goodwill and team spirit.

This has pissed me off. I have worked 48hrs this week to get stuff done to meet an unrealistic deadline. And I expect more of this to come.

How would others handle it?

My contract is a professional day. At one stage this week I worked 8am until 6pm the following day (i.e. around 36 hours). This is extreme and doesn't happen often (I had a major production system deployment) but I consider it part of the job and the reason I don't get paid the pathetic rates I often see mentioned on here by the likes of that Bolshie twit.

[Zippy]

Currently on a project where my contract states 37.5hrs a week.
I usually do slightly more - but that's my business and what I choose to do.
Due to incompetence (not mine or anyone in my team) and appalling proj management, we have some very tight deadlines coming up and have basically been asked (but not in writing) to work longer hours.
I spoke to my agency who said fine, just get it it agreed with permie PM.
I emailed Permie PM to get in writing what he was going to do about the extra hours - would he pay me the extra or paid 'time off'.

I got some waffle of a reply about working 'professional days' and expecting a certain amount of goodwill and team spirit.

This has pissed me off. I have worked 48hrs this week to get stuff done to meet an unrealistic deadline. And I expect more of this to come.

How would others handle it?

I agree that there's not a lot you can do. A 'professional working day' is generally considered to be 8 hours though.
They are not doing themselves any favours by working people into the ground, as they'll start going off sick, screwing up etc.. The danger is that if you rescue the project despite the crap management, it will become the norm or new expectation.

Make sure everyone is aware of the extra hours you are all doing and when the project is completed have a quiet word with the PM re shorter days or paid days off. He might be in a more reasonable mood when he's not stressed. Goodwill works both ways.

[BolshieBastard]

If you're paid by the hour it's not a problem. If you're paid by the day, there's not a hell of a lot you can do if the client won't play ball. (Then again, if you're paid by the day, why have you got a contract that states a set number of hours?). Day rate means you do any work for the client in any 24 hour period you charge them a set amount. That works for 23 hours every bit as well as it does for three; you can't have it both ways.

That's bollocks. A PWD doesnt mean you work excessive hours for the same day rate.

I dont have a problem doing 'extra' hours here and there. Im perfectly capable of managing my time and dont spend all day gassing on the phone or surfing the web when I should be working.

But, where there's a need to work hours regularly over and above what I need to do to get the job done, then I expect TOIL at least. It can be one for one for extra hours worked.

Sometimes the client will offer extra money, its a question of give and take. If the client offers extra money, Im happy to take my normal hourly rate since using multiples ie 1.5 or double seems a permie thing.

If a PM starts giving it this 'give extra hours freely' they can do one. If they wont play, dont expect extra hours out of me.

Having said that, the OP went about it the wrong way IMO. Instead of mailing the PM, he should have talked it over and made suggestions such as TOIL.

[BolshieBastard]

My contract is a professional day. At one stage this week I worked 8am until 6pm the following day (i.e. around 36 hours). This is extreme and doesn't happen often (I had a major production system deployment) but I consider it part of the job and the reason I don't get paid the pathetic rates I often see mentioned on here by the likes of that Bolshie twit.

Hahaha. I see you took the time to register yet another username to continue your trolling.

Wow! You worked 8am to 6pm, 36 hours without sleep. Give yourself a slap on the back.

[SuperZ]

I would say a professional working day is acceptable as an 8 hour day maximum(excluding lunch break so 9 hours if client insists on 1 hour lunch), set by the client. I don't care for this 'any length of time in a 24 hour period' non-sense. I can also gurantee than no client would let you work a 3 hour day and be paid for a 'professional' working day, or if they did, it would be at a low rate

I don't mind doing the odd extra hour here and there but anymore than two extra hours in a one week period in any given month (ie, I would not expect it to be regular every week) and I would expect to be paid for it.

I once was asked to work 10 hours days for an unknown length of time for free but potentially for 3 months+. I said no. They said "well, our permies are willing to do it", well that attitude ton top of other negative experiences with the client (such as banning none client related phone calls outside of lunch time while client expected 10 hours days) was enough to turn it into the only contract I have handed notice on to date. We run a business, have higher expenses usually (ie, commute further). We have to also consider the average hourly rate when making our contract decisions. In my experience above, I had a number of offers on the table when I took the position. Working 10 hours days for the same rate made it a potentially much less lucrative contract than the other offers, and unhealthy too. If you're going to spend an unhealthy amount of time with a client (ie, more than 8 hours a day), you want to at least get paid for it.

[nomadd]

Currently on a project where my contract states 37.5hrs a week.
I usually do slightly more - but that's my business and what I choose to do.
Due to incompetence (not mine or anyone in my team) and appalling proj management, we have some very tight deadlines coming up and have basically been asked (but not in writing) to work longer hours.
I spoke to my agency who said fine, just get it it agreed with permie PM.
I emailed Permie PM to get in writing what he was going to do about the extra hours - would he pay me the extra or paid 'time off'.

I got some waffle of a reply about working 'professional days' and expecting a certain amount of goodwill and team spirit.

This has pissed me off. I have worked 48hrs this week to get stuff done to meet an unrealistic deadline. And I expect more of this to come.

How would others handle it?

Always a touchy subject, this one, especially in the current market where clients expect to get more whilst paying out less.

As another poster has mentioned, 8 hours is what I would consider a PWD. And that's in banking. Other industries I'd say 7.5.

Banks in particular are full of permies who are prepared to work 50-60 hours a week, all in order to "climb the ladder", therefore they think that is the norm for everybody. Because of this, I always, always raise the issue of working hours with both the agent and the client at the time of interview. My current gig has a "no paid overtime" clause between the agency and the client; I made it perfectly clear to both of them that I'd do 8 hours and then be out the door. I leave at 4:30 each and every day (having got in at 8:00 and taken 30 minutes for lunch) and have no qualms about doing so.

Having said that, the Manager I work with is an OK guy, and I know if I do a bit of overtime he'd have no problem with me taking that back when I wanted. It's the "other" type of Manager you got to prepare yourself for, hence why I always raise this stuff before the contract begins.

[blacjac]

I got some waffle of a reply about working 'professional days' and expecting a certain amount of goodwill and team spirit.

This has pissed me off. I have worked 48hrs this week to get stuff done to meet an unrealistic deadline. And I expect more of this to come.

How would others handle it?

I would send a polite reply stating that I understand this, which I why I worked an extra 11 hours last week and x the week before and y the week before etc...

However if the client is requesting me to regularly work more than 37.5 hours per week then that is contrary to the terms of my contract so we need to sort it out formally to protect both myself and the client.




Is the PM a contractor? is it likeley that the client knows nothing of this and someone (PM?) is trying to cover up for their own balls up? If so then CC the client in on the email as if the project goes tits up the PM will point the finger at you for it's failure in order to cover their own arse.

[Zippy]

I should add that I hope you all keep notes about how long you work each day and what you achieved. It might help if the finger-pointing ever starts (actually, I'd argue that because people know you keep notes then it won't start). Apart from that I've found it useful to be able to recount what someone said in a meeting on (e.g.) 2nd October.