What has the downturn taught you?

[cojak]

Oh, and what has the down turn taught me?

Don't turn your nose up at definite 16 day jobs. The longer contracts I went for didn't appear and even if they had, I could have completed the 16 dayer before they started.

Rats...

[Wanderer]

And FFS, get rid of that chip that says 'NO DEGREE' on it - I got rid of mine years ago...

It kind of depends on what the hiring manager has. If he is an old school tie type then he is biased towards candidates with a degree. If he is a self made man who went through the university of hard knocks then he may look at degree holders with disdain.

Hopefully you can find people who take a bit of middle ground though. Good luck

[cojak]

I get work on what I can deliver now, not whether I can learn based on a qualification I might have got over 15 years ago.

If the hiring manager works on that, it's his loss - I've been in constant work until now and I know that not having a degree is not the reason why I'm on the bench at the moment...

[MrP]

I agree with SueEllen - this should be in General, so I'm going to be a bit harsh here but MrP will thank me in the end.

Maybe.

What a pile of crock.




Mr P is a permie and is thinking like a permie.

I'm the mirror image of you.

I started out exactly the same way as you (albeit 15 years before you).

CIC/COBOL/PL1, no degree.

12 years ago I moved out of coding because I didn't want to be a coder all of my life, I could see that the newfangled PC languages like VB were the way to go if I wanted to stay.

The difference is I had a focus and an plan, and the piece of awareness that seems to be the vital difference.

Unless you are very lucky, changing the course of your career is like changing the course of a supertanker - you have to do it early, you have to recognise that change is going to take some time and you have to realise that little things you do now will make a big difference in 2 years time.

Because generally it takes 2 years from the moment you decide to change course in your career to the moment you are in your new role.

I did float around like a butterfly trying a little bit of this and that, until I alighted on ITIL (I was training programmers and moved from there to contract training of Microsoft, a dead-end career if every there was one..).

My aim was to me an industry-wide respected ITIL consultant.

So I moved from training microsoft to training ITSM tools (not a big jump), to getting my ITIL foundation, to training ITSM tools as in-house projects, to getting my ITIL Manager's certificate, to training ITIL.

Then another career shift (because I had A PLAN, remember).

I took £150pd drop to move from ITIL training to ITIL doing. Got myself in as a junior process bod. At the end of that contract they extended me and doubled my rate...

And so it went on.

I've also built up other skills where I could a market for them, requirements gathering, benefits management (I've modified my PLAN slightly...) I'm still not where I want to be, but I'm getting there - this bench is getting a bit hard, but guess what, I'm learning UML and building my portfolio of intellectual property while I'm looking for work, ready for the next upturn.


So stop feeling sorry for yourself and start thinking like a contractor.

You have a load of base skills - what are you strongest at, what do you like to do, what does the market need? Don't give up on something after 2 minutes because it doesn't give you instant reward.

And FFS, get rid of that chip that says 'NO DEGREE' on it - I got rid of mine years ago...

HTH.

Not going to disagree with much there TBH. I have been a pillock and dropped into a 'Permie I'm alright mentality'. Not feeling sorry for myself per se either just frustrated with my current situation as I guess lots of people are. I know what direction I want to go in and that's PM work hence I got Prince2. My interview last week was for a Project Admin role which is a 45% pay cut for me and back to what I was earning 10 years ago! So I am doing as you've suggested. I have two CV's specifically tailored towards Project Support work and Business Analysis and it's pretty clear. The fact you successfully moved away from Cobol and coding after 15 years gives me great hope to be able to move away after 12!

Don't get your dig about the degree at all. I have no chip whatsoever. The fact remains that without one I am losing out on about 70% of roles that I see that I could do. That's employers putting degrees ahead of experience for you. I either suck it up or get a degree....simple.

So to recap what has this downturn taught me - keep skills up to date, show no loyalty whatsoever to an employer, keep eye out for opportunities at all times and don't get in a rut as you like where you work - it's about keeping ahead of the game and the money!

[MrP]

I get work on what I can deliver now, not whether I can learn based on a qualification I might have got over 15 years ago.

If the hiring manager works on that, it's his loss - I've been in constant work until now and I know that not having a degree is not the reason why I'm on the bench at the moment...

I disagree. There's probably a lot of people with the same skills and experience out there as you BUT some may have a degree and sadly I strongly believe that most employers would interview those people first before even looking at you. IMHO a degree in itself (unless of course it is a very specific IT degree) isn't worth as much as experience and good old fashioned soft/business skills. However when faced with 200+ applicants for a single role then they're going to narrow it down based on qualifications first and experience second. I know this for a fact as a mate is a pimp for IB's and has been told that they will not look at anyone without a degree irrespective of experience - absolute joke I know!

[MarillionFan]

I get work on what I can deliver now, not whether I can learn based on a qualification I might have got over 15 years ago.

If the hiring manager works on that, it's his loss - I've been in constant work until now and I know that not having a degree is not the reason why I'm on the bench at the moment...

Exactly. It's because you're now too old.

[cojak]

So to recap what has this downturn taught me - keep skills up to date, show no loyalty whatsoever to an employer, keep eye out for opportunities at all times and don't get in a rut as you like where you work - it's about keeping ahead of the game and the money!

And keep plugging away - you'll get a job.

I really don't care about the few who won't give me a job because of my lack of a degree - there are plenty out there who will...

[doodab]

I know this for a fact as a mate is a pimp for IB's and has been told that they will not look at anyone without a degree irrespective of experience - absolute joke I know!

I've heard much the same thing from a mate who has worked in banking since he graduated and is now a (contract) dev team lead. They generally want a degree that says you are comfortable with hard maths.

Personally, I've never found my lack of a degree a problem when it comes to getting work. Skills and experience have always seen me through. I would like to go back to uni and get my degree but that's for personal satisfaction, not a career boost.

[cojak]

Exactly. It's because you're now too old.

Oi - come over here and say that!

I'll see you in General, matey..

[MarillionFan]

Oi - come over here and say that!

I'll see you in General, matey..

I'll be over later Grandma. Do you want me to get you some adult nappies from the supermarket?