Sorry, you only have 14 years experience...

[Brussels Slumdog]

After 5 years

Your right, the person with 15 years is just the same as 5 years, but 3 times over. After 5 years you're not learning anything new, just repeating yourself.

All a bit strange...

Some people learn quickly and some take a little longer to learn
so what they are looking for is someone who can finally understand how to do the job after 15 years which I guess rules most of us out.

[SueEllen]

Damn nomadd

You didn't need to explain it to him so literally. Now everyone is going to do the same. Don't need more competition.

[nomadd]

Damn nomadd

You didn't need to explain it to him so literally. Now everyone is going to do the same. Don't need more competition.

Don't worry, Sue, it's Bolshie we are talking about here. He's too busy trolling the forums to spend any time learning something new. He's also too fearful of being "caught out" and being "show his own arse." And any talk of a contractor actually downloading and learning free software - or having to buy a cheap developers kit - is clearly too 'ridiculous' for him.

[minestrone]

I can count on one hand the programs I have used in the last 8 years contract developing where it costs to get a working version of the application.

Maybe DB2, Websphere, Weblogic, clearcase and Sybase.

Everything else, and I mean dozens and dozens of tools that I have used from banks to small software houses are all free.

That is why the Bobs can train up, very little cost of entry into the market now.

[nomadd]

I can count on one hand the programs I have used in the last 8 years contract developing where it costs to get a working version of the application.

Maybe DB2, Websphere, Weblogic, clearcase and Sybase.

Everything else, and I mean dozens and dozens of tools that I have used from banks to small software houses are all free.

That is why the Bobs can train up, very little cost of entry into the market now.

Exactly.

And nearly all of those you mention above can be grabbed for free as "trial" editions or "community" editions. So no problem with any of those either. Ditto Oracle (the database) and all the stuff they now own (i.e. after their purchase of BEA, Sun Microsystems, etc.)

Like you said, the "Bobs" (and others) are training up for free, so we have to respond in kind. If we don't, as contractors, we are screwed. I guess that's the message of this whole thread: agents and clients only speed scan cv's for the correct buzz-words. IMHO, you might as well download the software and learn a bit of it so you can add those buzz-words to your cv. After all, that's what every one of those "offshore resources" is doing. I should know, I've worked with enough of them: great sounding cv's and an ability to claim they've done everything. Of course, the reality is usually very different. But by then it's too late, the client has already hired them and is too lazy to get rid, so they end up be trained on-site for free at the clients expense. Makes my blood boil at the number of them I've had to "carry" over the last 10 years, but that's just an unfortunate part of contracting. As I say, I now just respond in kind by making sure my cv has "everything" on it as well; seems to be working so far!

[memyselfandi]

As I say, I now just respond in kind by making sure my cv has "everything" on it as well; seems to be working so far!

Ok,

I understand your point regarding learning a specific skill for a specific job. I am currently putting myself through SCWCD certification because I need to get the skills to move forward into J2EE type work. I am also learning Hibernate, and extending my knowledge of the spring framework. So, I am not actually resting on my laurels as you seem to have assumed following my comment. I was simply highlighting an instance where an agent was being pedantic.

But surely, if you have tens of skills on your CV, it starts to become a little unbelievable.

Also, does it not show you are more of a jack of all trades, and a master of none. Surely clients want experts in their field.

[nomadd]

I was simply highlighting an instance where an agent was being pedantic.

Problem is, all agents are pedantic these days. And their clients!

But surely, if you have tens of skills on your CV, it starts to become a little unbelievable.

Not if you spread them around across multiple roles. I've "reskilled" quite heavily in the last 3-4 years, but I've spread it across my last 4-5 roles. And my current job is a case in point where nearly all of those skills are used on the project as it's quite a complex one (an FX system), so you might as well stick them on the cv than leave them off and miss out on a great next contract.

Also, does it not show you are more of a jack of all trades, and a master of none. Surely clients want experts in their field.

Good point, and I have considered that in the past. But the truth is, the agents and their clients seem to love cv's with "all 37 skills tick boxes checked", as you yourself pointed out at the start of this thread... More skills on the cv gets it "up" on the agents call lists, which then gets you the submissions and interviews with the clients.

As I said in a prior post, the offshore guys - half my age and a quarter of my experience - are doing it and getting work, so I've just adopted the same approach. Seems to be the nature of things these days. Less and less, although not all, contract jobs now seem to want people with a bit of everything - and that includes business skills as well as just technical ones. The more I can cram on my cv, the merrier.

[BolshieBastard]

The product he mentioned, SVN, is completely free. And for those that aren't, buy them. That's what I've been doing for 20-odd years, and it's always more than paid for itself. All part of being a contractor, IMHO. What's 'ridiculous' is that you don't seem to understand that. And I've never been "out on my arse" in 21 years of contracting, because I learn the software properly.

Like I said, SVN is free. It takes 5 minutes to download and install. Learning the basics takes about 1-2 hours. And if you know CVS - like the OP claimed he did - you are more than 50% of the way there anyway (read up on the history of SVN to understand why.) What he could have learnt within 1-2 hours would have covered all of the questions he'd have come up against in 95% of the interviews that list SVN as a requirement. I had no problem getting through my interview, and no problem using the product on-site; and I use it every day. It really is that simple. Ditto Java 1.6, Maven2, Hibernate, Spring, CXF, JPA, CruiseControl, Mockito, etc., etc. - all the stuff used by Investment Banks (and elsewhere) that's paying decent money at the moment - it's all free and easy to learn if you are prepared to put the effort in. I learnt it, and I'm no rocket scientist.

EDIT: Ps. The SVN reference book is also superb and absolutely free in ebook format. Ditto the Maven2 reference guide. And the Hibernate reference guide. And the Spring reference guide. And... Notice a pattern here..?

And I said not all applications are freely available. Some applications I have worked with have licence costs of getting on for ten grand. Multiple that a number of times and its easy to see why some people cant do as you suggest.

The point which obviously flew over your head is if you are telling clients you have work experience of applications when you havent, in the current market you are running the risk of being walked off site should they find out.

The fact you havent been found out or walked off site for not being truthful in 20 years is pretty immaterial. Its only recently some client co's are now using the fact someone wasnt truthful as their cause to remove them. Dont take my word for it, Im certain you could find CUK articles to illustrate the fact.

[nomadd]

The point which obviously flew over your head is if you are telling clients you have work experience of applications when you havent, in the current market you are running the risk of being walked off site should they find out.

The point which continues to fly over your head is that no-one is going to pay you to learn new software as a contractor. Sure, years ago they may have, but not in today's economic climate (unless you are very, very lucky.) So, what are you going to do - sit at home and bitch about it for the rest of your life? Or do something about it? You seem to be dreaming up all manner of excuses for inaction, but none of them are convincing. I have to earn a living, so therefore don't have the luxury of sitting at home making up excuses.

And, as I've suggested, I've had no problems whatsoever working the way I do as a contractor for 21 years. The idea you are suggesting that things have suddenly changed is utter nonsense. For Christ's sake, man, just look at the rubbish that's been flooding over from India for the last ten years, stealing contract positions left, right and centre. Do you think these people honestly care about how/where they picked up their skills? The clients don't seem to be bothered, at least not based on the numbers of them they seem to employ...

Now, I've never claimed - as you seem to be suggesting - that I turn up on-site knowing nothing about the software. That would be plain stupid. What I am saying is nearly all the stuff you need as a contractor can be downloaded for free, or bought very cheaply as a dev. kit, and at that point you go away and learn it. Now, how can you be "...found out... and ...led off-site..." for actually knowing something? Simple, you can't.

Those rare cases these days of software that "costs thousands" and is unobtainable, continue to be a problem. But what the hell, just skip 'em. Most of them have their own in-house consultants anyway - who work for peanuts - so it's not a market you want to be in. I know this from bitter experience of working with many of IBMs "exclusive" products in the past; it just isn't worth the hassle: too niche, and generally too lowly paid these days. Still, in the past, I've probably blown £50k - yes £50k - on hardware, software and books for my "job" as a contractor. That's a lot of dosh, but the £2 million+ turnover that my company has had in return far outweighs even those costs. And these days, as I keep saying, you don't have to spend anything on software as it's largely free.

[BolshieBastard]

The point which continues to fly over your head is that no-one is going to pay you to learn new software as a contractor.

I must tell my clients that according to you, they shouldnt let me be trained up on their latest software then! And they include several multinational banks and UK utility companies.