Need opinion on IT jobs in UK for HSMP

[oracleslave]

If you give the junior roles to another country you lose the chance to grow your architects for the future. Then when you have done that you will get screwed by India/China/Poland/<next offshore buzz> because they now know you don't have the ability to do the BA/ Senior roles because no one invested in the early years.

You have diagnosed the problem correctly. What's the solution again? Other than trying to compete on cost and suffering through the early years until you can get skills/knowledge/experience that cannot be off-shored I don't see any other way forward and even then you are likely to be in a very small minority. I have no idea how asking the government to help is going to be of any use either unless someone can enlighten me.

[Fred Bloggs]

I'm afraid the only option open to us an contractors in the UK is to try to continually move up the technology/skill tree ahead of the Asians/others. Ultimately, I guess it will be futile when they reach the top of the skills tree too. But by then they'll cost the same as us, so we'll get the work back then. By that time I'll be retired though.

[PM-Junkie]

You have diagnosed the problem correctly. What's the solution again? Other than trying to compete on cost and suffering through the early years until you can get skills/knowledge/experience that cannot be off-shored I don't see any other way forward and even then you are likely to be in a very small minority. I have no idea how asking the government to help is going to be of any use either unless someone can enlighten me.

If you check out what is happening around the globe, the inevitable conclusion is war. Either a collection of civil wars as people get thoroughly hacked off with the incompetence of their politicians, or another big one as countries blame each other.

Thanks to the morons in charge, this is rapidly going beyond economics.

[Board Game Geek]

If you check out what is happening around the globe, the inevitable conclusion is war. Either a collection of civil wars as people get thoroughly hacked off with the incompetence of their politicians, or another big one as countries blame each other.

It does seem that way. However I believe that people also need to shoulder some of blame in this as well, and we cannot lay the blame solely at the feet of the politicians.

We all want more and more, we breed like rabbits, we consume more and more, and there has to be a reckoning somewhere down the line.

The planet has limited resources, and at our rate of growth and consumption, the future is just not sustainable.

[bobspud]

You have diagnosed the problem correctly. What's the solution again? Other than trying to compete on cost and suffering through the early years until you can get skills/knowledge/experience that cannot be off-shored I don't see any other way forward and even then you are likely to be in a very small minority. I have no idea how asking the government to help is going to be of any use either unless someone can enlighten me.

The solution is quite hard but it has to be done or we are toast. The only way off shoring got a foot hold was because people that are not technical (Thinking about CBI etc) Saw an opportunity but did not realise that they were not comparing like for like when taking skill and cost into account.

The average FD will only see the bottom line on any given project. They will not understand the difference between a well written algorithm and a hacked up job written on the fly. It will not occur to them that they had to use more senior members of staff or had to buy more hardware,than they really needed. The hardware is the key to this... It takes more space, power, cooling and administration from the companies future budget.
none of which will be factored into the project cost (it will hide in BAU). In fact I doubt that many companies understand the _real_ full life cycle costs in making the decision to
do things on the cheap...

Its up to the onshore workforce to actually take a pride in what they do. Make the effort to teach each other the best practices and show UK companies That we provide an Aston Martin rather than a TATA.

It is up to the senior members of the industry to voice fair concerns to the non technical stakeholders to ensure that they start to understand that the are large hidden costs involved in the use of offshore resources.

Now the here's the kicker...

Its time that our universities started to actually teach something useful with regards to practical IT. We need our companies to start to ask our places of learning to churn out some of our code for us. (Look at Xen as a good example)
Actually go to the campus and teach undergrads how real projects are run, and in the process provide credit towards their degrees. Year 1 teach the language Year 2. Start to use that in the real world. Year 3 graduate as a programmer with practical skills...

I think they used to call it an apprenticeship... Cheaper than offshore (practically free) and invests in our own kids

[GreenerGrass]

Good posts Bob Spud.

And Dextor, if you think in 3-6 months the liquidity problem will be solved by "world governments" you have another thing coming. 3 years might be more likely, and even that's being optimistic. There is a more fundamental change underway as the debt bubble unwinds.
And anyway I can't see any British government that ever wants to be re-elected relaxing VISA restrictions for a decade (I wonder how much the PCG helped in this regard, I am a member and as the closest thing we have to a collective union-type voice it's great that they were listened to).

In the meantime all we can do is as Fred Bloggs said, carving out a niche and stuffing enough away that we can be in a strong position to survive on a vastly reduced income in 5 years or a decade from now.

If 90% of India's IT revenue is from the West they are screwed as well when the outsourcing model falters. I don't think it is anywhere near guaranteed or inevitable that the current rate of outsourcing will continue forever to one country.
The spectre of mass unemployment means US and EU protectionism of labour will be demanded even if our own stupid politicians continue to sell the future generations down the toilet to appease corporate donors.

[oracleslave]

The solution is quite hard but it has to be done or we are toast. The only way off shoring got a foot hold was because people that are not technical (Thinking about CBI etc) Saw an opportunity but did not realise that they were not comparing like for like when taking skill and cost into account.

I may well be wrong but hasn't the horse bolted already? I think the "toast" is already burnt. As Fred Bloggs mentioned the only viable alternative is to move up the skills hierarchy into ever smaller niches. Well in my opinion this may work for certain individuals but is no way sustainable for an entire industry.

Yes the decision to offshore has largely been based on cost factors in the past and yes there are companies that have been burnt when the true costs of outsourcing are taken into account. Do it properly and the cost savings and competitive advantage that may be available to mulinationals remains and hence they will continue to head in that direction imho.

The average FD will only see the bottom line on any given project. They will not understand the difference between a well written algorithm and a hacked up job written on the fly.

To be honest I don't think the majority of FD's give two flying figs about a welkl written algorithm. They care about managing costs and risks!

It will not occur to them that they had to use more senior members of staff or had to buy more hardware,than they really needed.

That has not been my experience

The hardware is the key to this... It takes more space, power, cooling and administration from the companies future budget.

But is more cost effective to be housed and maintained offshore surely?

[/quote]

It is up to the senior members of the industry to voice fair concerns to the non technical stakeholders to ensure that they start to understand that the are large hidden costs involved in the use of offshore resources.

Companies continue to outsource/onshore/offshore at rapid rates. It's been around for a sufficient lenght of time that the 'hidden' costs you refer to should be known to any management team with half a brain. So why do they do it? Simple economics and cost savings.

Having said that the cost advantages of outsourcing to India are reducing all the time. I read somewhere that the cost ratio from USA to India used to be 1:15, is now in the region of 1:3 and is expected to be 1:1 around 2015. The Indian outsourcers are wise to this and are setting up outsourcing centres further east, in Africa, Asia etc where the labour costs are lower than India. Just like UK IT folk moving up the skills ladder this is unlikely to be a successful long-term approach. So they are supplementing this approach with acquisitions. All over. Outsourcing has made for some very wealthy and cash rich organisations and as we all know in the global recession cash is king and these guys are just going to be buying up assets/market share.

Now the here's the kicker...

Its time that our universities started to actually teach something useful with regards to practical IT. We need our companies to start to ask our places of learning to churn out some of our code for us. (Look at Xen as a good example)
Actually go to the campus and teach undergrads how real projects are run, and in the process provide credit towards their degrees. Year 1 teach the language Year 2. Start to use that in the real world. Year 3 graduate as a programmer with practical skills...

I think they used to call it an apprenticeship... Cheaper than offshore (practically free) and invests in our own kids

Not a bad idea. The downside is that after you have done your degree and racked up a sizeable student loan, your career in programming is not going to pay very well for a long time.

[DodgyAgent]

Programmers start with the menial stuff and grow into architects. You can't just wake up and say today I'm a BA or an Solutions Architect. Well actually you can but you will be crap at it and get fired fast.
I'm an infrastructure architect by trade however I started as a junior sysadmin more than 15 years ago. If you give the junior roles to another country you lose the chance to grow your architects for the future. Then when you have done that you will get screwed by India/China/Poland/<next offshore buzz> because they now know you don't have the ability to do the BA/ Senior roles because no one invested in the early years.

It is better to give "junior roles" to another country than it is to remove competion from the job market. If you have employees who are only locals they get fat and lazy. Likewise if you are the only employer in town the employer gets fat and lazy. If the work is going to be shipped abroad then great, get yourself retrained.

Jaguar land Rovers' problem (they said) is that they have such a low staff turnover rate that they have to keep employing people who should really be forced out of their comfort zones.

What I dont like is cheap labour being imported into this country without there being reciprocal rights. So Poles coming here and working harder and more cheaply than Brits is fine just as long as we in turn can go and work there.

A country like Poland has huge shortages of decent management and even construction workers. You've got a bike pedal it.

[expat]

So who is being allowed into India to work on IT systems? Is it worth my while setting up business to ship in cheap Java developers from Nigeria?
And whilst you are quite right in your point about mobility of labour why is it that Britain is one of the few countries that encourages it from non white countries? what really pisses me off is that all these little whingers expect the UK to give them a living, many od who scream "racist" when anyone objects. Yet these people themselves come from and support the nastiest little racist protectionist regimes on the planet

I am a little concerned, since I find myself agreeing with Dodgy here.

Only hearsay I know (= too lazy to google) but I read of an American programmer who was kicked out of his job in favour of cheaper Indians, who decided to try it the other way round: he applied for jobs in India, on any rate the client offered. No go: the Indian government wouldn't give him a visa. They're not stupid.

[lightng]

If you have employees who are only locals they get fat and lazy.

The demise of the Romans. The demise of the spartans.

What I dont like is cheap labour being imported into this country without there being reciprocal rights. So Poles coming here and working harder and more cheaply than Brits is fine just as long as we in turn can go and work there.

Yes agree - there has to be reciprocity. I think the final outcome has to be a free and flowing market but I don't agree with the speed the change has happened / is happening. There should have been some control from the start. It smacks of a game of british bulldogs with each competitor wielding a sledge hammer.

A country like Poland has huge shortages of decent management and even construction workers. You've got a bike pedal it.

Cos they're all working over here