Changing industry - help please

[cojak]

Ditto

For any job requiring human communication skills, then give me an IT person with a degree in mech engineering (esp cambridge UCL) ahead of anyone with a computer science degree, or "member of the British computer society"any day.

But trying to put a cogent argument for why I need another pair of black shoes or explaining exactly the correct pitch of a whirring noise heard in the back of the car can prove a bit of a bugger on occasion...

[Let-Me-In]

You will also find that the agency will take 10 excellent CV's, then submit the 3 that he can make the biggest mark up from...which ain't gonna help you.

Lying scumbags...

[DodgyAgent]

You will also find that the agency will take 10 excellent CV's, then submit the 3 that he can make the biggest mark up from...which ain't gonna help you.

Lying scumbags...

Assuming of course the hiring manager is pathetic enough to accept whoever the agency wants to put forward in the first place. i wonder how many hiring managers would put their hands up to being utterly compliant to the agencies choice of contractors, rather than saying "stop putting these people forward and get me the person I want or I will use another agency".

[Let-Me-In]

Assuming of course the hiring manager is pathetic enough to accept whoever the agency wants to put forward in the first place. i wonder how many hiring managers would put their hands up to being utterly compliant to the agencies choice of contractors, rather than saying "stop putting these people forward and get me the person I want or I will use another agency".

So are you saying that you don't condone this kind of practice? The hiring manager is at the mercy of the agent, he will only interview the candidates put forward by the agency. I would then argue that most agents are as dodgy as each other...kind of like lawyers and estate agents!

[DodgyAgent]

So are you saying that you don't condone this kind of practice? The hiring manager is at the mercy of the agent, he will only interview the candidates put forward by the agency. I would then argue that most agents are as dodgy as each other...kind of like lawyers and estate agents!

I have never encountered a single hiring manager who has accepted second best. In my experience if we fail to put the right person forward the client simply goes elsewhere. Also In today's heavily regulated PSL environment a client would prefer to go to a software house and pay 3 times as much in order to get the person he/she wants, and in the process make the PSL suppliers look as if they are not doing their job. There are over 3000 agencies out there and if you think that we have the level of control that you assume then either you are stupid or you think that PMs are weak, stupid and pathetic. And if your fantasy little world of agency domination existed then only the worst and the cheapest contractors would ever find jobs, leaving the very best sitting at home benching. I dont know about you but I tend to find that in our industry the reverse is true.

[Let-Me-In]

I have never encountered a single hiring manager who has accepted second best. In my experience if we fail to put the right person forward the client simply goes elsewhere. Also In today's heavily regulated PSL environment a client would prefer to go to a software house and pay 3 times as much in order to get the person he/she wants, and in the process make the PSL suppliers look as if they are not doing their job. There are over 3000 agencies out there and if you think that we have the level of control that you assume then either you are stupid or you think that PMs are weak, stupid and pathetic. And if your fantasy little world of agency domination existed then only the worst and the cheapest contractors would ever find jobs, leaving the very best sitting at home benching. I dont know about you but I tend to find that in our industry the reverse is true.

So, given 5 excellent CV's and a client that has asked you to put 3 forward, which would you put forward? The 3 that were after the lowest rates?

On your other point about the software house, I am not just talking about developers here. I generally do managerial roles so deal with agencies day in and day out and recruit engineers, team leaders, consultants etc. Most large companies now stick to the PSL and find the process for going outside of that a PITA. Therefor they really are at the mercy of the agency and rely on them to supply good quality CV's. Since the client also has to supply a rate, this allows for some very bad practices on behalf of the agency.

Or are you saying that this does not happen?

[Old Greg]

So, given 5 excellent CV's and a client that has asked you to put 3 forward, which would you put forward? The 3 that were after the lowest rates?

On your other point about the software house, I am not just talking about developers here. I generally do managerial roles so deal with agencies day in and day out and recruit engineers, team leaders, consultants etc. Most large companies now stick to the PSL and find the process for going outside of that a PITA. Therefor they really are at the mercy of the agency and rely on them to supply good quality CV's. Since the client also has to supply a rate, this allows for some very bad practices on behalf of the agency.

Or are you saying that this does not happen?

If end clients are that worried about this, thay can insist of a fixed margin as my end-client does. Agencies would hae no incentive to play this game. If end clients aren't insisting on fixed rates, then either they don't see this as a problem, or for some reason I've not thought of, they don't see fixed rates as a solution.

[Let-Me-In]

If end clients are that worried about this, thay can insist of a fixed margin as my end-client does. Agencies would hae no incentive to play this game. If end clients aren't insisting on fixed rates, then either they don't see this as a problem, or for some reason I've not thought of, they don't see fixed rates as a solution.

Fixed rates are becoming more common now...which I agree is the way to go.

[DodgyAgent]

So, given 5 excellent CV's and a client that has asked you to put 3 forward, which would you put forward? The 3 that were after the lowest rates?

On your other point about the software house, I am not just talking about developers here. I generally do managerial roles so deal with agencies day in and day out and recruit engineers, team leaders, consultants etc. Most large companies now stick to the PSL and find the process for going outside of that a PITA. Therefor they really are at the mercy of the agency and rely on them to supply good quality CV's. Since the client also has to supply a rate, this allows for some very bad practices on behalf of the agency.

Or are you saying that this does not happen?

I am not saying that it does not happen but agencies are ten a penny and are subject to the rigours of continual assesment. If an agency dares to compromise the quality of a contractor in order to gain a larger margin then they will come unstuck and end up not placing anyone. I would rather take a lower margin on a "dead cert" rather than ignore the best contractor in favour of a more profitable one. After all that "best contractor" is going to find his way in front of the PM anyway either through another agency or by going direct. Unless this disgusting practice is employed whereby the agency makes the "best contractor" believe that they have put him forward and do not do so.

Remember the integrity of the PSL is not so sacrosanct as to supercede the requirements of the business, if the PSL fails to work, fails to supply the best people then areas of the business start to break away from it, which then usually results in the sacking of those people who run the PSL along with its suppliers.

Find me a PM who is completely at the mercy of poor agencies, and I will find you a PM who will soon be looking for another job. No PM worth his or her salt would ever allow the commercial interests of an IT project to be compromised by the paucity of agency suppliers.

[Let-Me-In]

I am not saying that it does not happen but agencies are ten a penny and are subject to the rigours of continual assesment. If an agency dares to compromise the quality of a contractor in order to gain a larger margin then they will come unstuck and end up not placing anyone. I would rather take a lower margin on a "dead cert" rather than ignore the best contractor in favour of a more profitable one. After all that "best contractor" is going to find his way in front of the PM anyway either through another agency or by going direct. Unless this disgusting practice is employed whereby the agency makes the "best contractor" believe that they have put him forward and do not do so.

Remember the integrity of the PSL is not so sacrosanct as to supercede the requirements of the business, if the PSL fails to work, fails to supply the best people then areas of the business start to break away from it, which then usually results in the sacking of those people who run the PSL along with its suppliers.

Find me a PM who is completely at the mercy of poor agencies, and I will find you a PM who will soon be looking for another job. No PM worth his or her salt would ever allow the commercial interests of an IT project to be compromised by the paucity of agency suppliers.

I agree agencies are 10 a penny but refer to my post about PSL. Companies are loathe to go outside it because of the administration overhead in apps like SAP and other financial apps that require agreeing to T&C's etc.

It is not the PM that is at the mercy of poor agencies but the regulations placed on recruiters make it difficult to move away from the PSL. I have found this restriction in some of the biggest companies in the country throughout my career and it infuriates me.

I am glad that you agree that the practice does exist and I am not suggesting that you do it...merely saying that I don't trust agents!! Nothing personal.