Reply to: Changing industry - help please

[tim123]

Find me a PM who is completely at the mercy of poor agencies, and I will find you a PM who will soon be looking for another job. No PM worth his or her salt would ever allow the commercial interests of an IT project to be compromised by the paucity of agency suppliers.

My previous one did.

tim

[Old Greg]

Change jobs, not industry?

I work in a completely different industry (health) and have come into IT with expertise in health, no particularly IT. Have you considered moving into IT in the mech eng. industry, where your experience of the business and expertise in the technical aspects will be relevant and give you an edge? Don't know how relevant that is to your industry - just a thought.

[TheFaQQer]

It's no doubt been said before here (I can't be bothered to read the whole thread!) - determine exactly what you want to do in IT, and then find a permie role that will help get experience.

Tailor your CV as much as you can to what you want to do - e.g. if you want to be a project manager, then highlight areas where you have led from the front, etc. When you get an interview, stress that you have the aptitude, although not necessarily the technical knowledge - I always argued that I could teach someone PL/SQL if they had technical aptitude; I could not teach someone to be a good consultant.

Best of luck, whatever you decide to do.

[Pondlife]

A lot of the higher paid jobs in IT have a high entry barrier based on experience in specific areas or technologies. Therefore, as said before, you need to be willing to start at the bottom and think carefully about which area to go into. Whatever is currently 'in' may not be in demand by the time you've enough experience or even worse it may be outsourced.

HTH

[Euro-commuter]

Hi Folks,

This is my first day on this forum and my first thread - so a general hello to start with !!!!

I have trawled through the Search feature but not found a suitable answer so here goes....

Basically, I am a chartered mechanical engineer contractor, currently working in Aerospace, who is starting to feel the wanderlust and is tempted by the IT contracting game. How do I get in on it???
...
Matt

Since this isn't helpful, I didn't butt in with it right at the start, but:
Why do you want to get into IT? Any specific reason?
If it is just that you reckon you could do it well and it would pay well, you might be a little out of date on the state of the market. It does pay some of us well, but these days that is mostly those of us with skills that happen to be in demand (and they can go out of demand rather quickly), and lots of experience oin these skills. The days of a little bit of knowledge and a lot of daily rate are long gone.

[Cowboy Bob]

Experience is everything. The people that get you the contracts (agents) will not touch you unless your CV shows that you have done the same thing elsewhere.

I agree 100%. Qualifications mean absolutely nothing in the technical IT contractor market - management is a bit different with things like Prince 2 or ITIL certifications but that will be on top of experience.

The ONLY way into a technical IT contract role is by doing it as a permie for at least 3 years, preferably up to 5.

So the question is, what do you want to do in IT? If it's system administration, then Board Game Geek's suggestion is about right - you'll probably need to go the helpdesk route.

If it's development, then you'll probably want to do a programming course at your local collage and then get yourself a permie junior development position. This will pay somewhere between £17 and £20k. Then work your way up to senior developer which will take you 3 to 5 years most likely and get your up to around £30k in salary. Once you reach senior level you are probably ready to try your hand at contracting.

[Gonzo]

Gentlemen,

Thankyou so much for your responses, though I must admit that some gave me the impression that this forum is full of nothing but ego & arrogance....Though, thankfully, having read all of them I can see that is not true (and by the way I'm not 'very young' - thankyou!!!).

If I had not made myself clear to begin with then allow me to now; I simply want to change career. Yes, mech eng & I have enjoyed one anothers company but its time to move on, I have gleaned as much as I feel I can from this industry. Whilst I have some impressive names on my CV I feel an urge to continue through my life and not get stuck in the same thing.

As I have said before, my intention is to move into something else and IT has caught my eye, of course I am never going to catch up with the 'experts' on here but I just want one sniff of a lead and I will chase it....

I guess my question, to those that might offer me help, as opposed to shooting me down, is what am I best to do to get in on it??? Excuse me but I dont mean 11k per annum help desk jobs. I am willing to self fund courses etc as long as what I get has real cost/benefit. Not 'have you tried resetting it'....

Anyway, for the ego-typical thankyou very much, your input is both appreciated and valued. For the others, well you just revel in your self-perceived glory....Well done you!

Matt

What you find with the responses on here, however unhelpful they are, are the same as you will find in the real world.

"IT" is an industry that is constantly changing and qualifications are not valued. Unlike other "professions" that you can learn and get qualifications in, "IT" is one where the only thing that will get you a job is experience of doing the same thing before somewhere else.

The only way in is to look for something permanent where they will accept you with vaguely similar qualities and pay to train you up. Now I am typing this I cannot remember from your first post whether you would look at permanent or were looking to contract from day 1.

Experience is everything. The people that get you the contracts (agents) will not touch you unless your CV shows that you have done the same thing elsewhere. Nowhere is this more evident than when they post job adverts asking for "a minumum of four years experience" in a technology, or in my case financial regulations, that has only just been introduced.

How we laugh.

[Matchoo]

Gentlemen,

Thankyou so much for your responses, though I must admit that some gave me the impression that this forum is full of nothing but ego & arrogance....Though, thankfully, having read all of them I can see that is not true (and by the way I'm not 'very young' - thankyou!!!).

If I had not made myself clear to begin with then allow me to now; I simply want to change career. Yes, mech eng & I have enjoyed one anothers company but its time to move on, I have gleaned as much as I feel I can from this industry. Whilst I have some impressive names on my CV I feel an urge to continue through my life and not get stuck in the same thing.

As I have said before, my intention is to move into something else and IT has caught my eye, of course I am never going to catch up with the 'experts' on here but I just want one sniff of a lead and I will chase it....

I guess my question, to those that might offer me help, as opposed to shooting me down, is what am I best to do to get in on it??? Excuse me but I dont mean 11k per annum help desk jobs. I am willing to self fund courses etc as long as what I get has real cost/benefit. Not 'have you tried resetting it'....

Anyway, for the ego-typical thankyou very much, your input is both appreciated and valued. For the others, well you just revel in your self-perceived glory....Well done you!

Matt

[mrdonuts]

i reckon CAD contract work is your best choice, looking at jobserve you shoul dbe able to get 25 per hour

[DodgyAgent]

How is a client to know that you had 5 excellent CV's but only put the 3 that asked for the lowest rate through?

He doesnt, but if there are four agencies on the PSL then the chances are that at between the other agents the other 5 will get put forward. I do not understand quite where you are coming from on this. Not even the most stupid of agents would put someone forward who has neither the skills nor the experience just because they could make more margin, unless they are a sole supplier.

If there are four competing agencies who advertise the job on jobserve their priority is going to be to get the best CVs first and submitted before the others get hold of them. If an agency ignores the best CVs and sends the cheapest/worst then they wont be placing anyone will they?

[Let-Me-In]

Well we are on two major PSLs and if do not perform day in day out we would be dropped on a months notice with no hesitation and have all our contractors taken from us.

How is a client to know that you had 5 excellent CV's but only put the 3 that asked for the lowest rate through?

[DodgyAgent]

I agree agencies are 10 a penny but refer to my post about PSL. Companies are loathe to go outside it because of the administration overhead in apps like SAP and other financial apps that require agreeing to T&C's etc.

It is not the PM that is at the mercy of poor agencies but the regulations placed on recruiters make it difficult to move away from the PSL. I have found this restriction in some of the biggest companies in the country throughout my career and it infuriates me.

I am glad that you agree that the practice does exist and I am not suggesting that you do it...merely saying that I don't trust agents!! Nothing personal.

Well we are on two major PSLs and if do not perform day in day out we would be dropped on a months notice with no hesitation and have all our contractors taken from us.

[Let-Me-In]

I am not saying that it does not happen but agencies are ten a penny and are subject to the rigours of continual assesment. If an agency dares to compromise the quality of a contractor in order to gain a larger margin then they will come unstuck and end up not placing anyone. I would rather take a lower margin on a "dead cert" rather than ignore the best contractor in favour of a more profitable one. After all that "best contractor" is going to find his way in front of the PM anyway either through another agency or by going direct. Unless this disgusting practice is employed whereby the agency makes the "best contractor" believe that they have put him forward and do not do so.

Remember the integrity of the PSL is not so sacrosanct as to supercede the requirements of the business, if the PSL fails to work, fails to supply the best people then areas of the business start to break away from it, which then usually results in the sacking of those people who run the PSL along with its suppliers.

Find me a PM who is completely at the mercy of poor agencies, and I will find you a PM who will soon be looking for another job. No PM worth his or her salt would ever allow the commercial interests of an IT project to be compromised by the paucity of agency suppliers.

I agree agencies are 10 a penny but refer to my post about PSL. Companies are loathe to go outside it because of the administration overhead in apps like SAP and other financial apps that require agreeing to T&C's etc.

It is not the PM that is at the mercy of poor agencies but the regulations placed on recruiters make it difficult to move away from the PSL. I have found this restriction in some of the biggest companies in the country throughout my career and it infuriates me.

I am glad that you agree that the practice does exist and I am not suggesting that you do it...merely saying that I don't trust agents!! Nothing personal.

[DodgyAgent]

So, given 5 excellent CV's and a client that has asked you to put 3 forward, which would you put forward? The 3 that were after the lowest rates?

On your other point about the software house, I am not just talking about developers here. I generally do managerial roles so deal with agencies day in and day out and recruit engineers, team leaders, consultants etc. Most large companies now stick to the PSL and find the process for going outside of that a PITA. Therefor they really are at the mercy of the agency and rely on them to supply good quality CV's. Since the client also has to supply a rate, this allows for some very bad practices on behalf of the agency.

Or are you saying that this does not happen?

I am not saying that it does not happen but agencies are ten a penny and are subject to the rigours of continual assesment. If an agency dares to compromise the quality of a contractor in order to gain a larger margin then they will come unstuck and end up not placing anyone. I would rather take a lower margin on a "dead cert" rather than ignore the best contractor in favour of a more profitable one. After all that "best contractor" is going to find his way in front of the PM anyway either through another agency or by going direct. Unless this disgusting practice is employed whereby the agency makes the "best contractor" believe that they have put him forward and do not do so.

Remember the integrity of the PSL is not so sacrosanct as to supercede the requirements of the business, if the PSL fails to work, fails to supply the best people then areas of the business start to break away from it, which then usually results in the sacking of those people who run the PSL along with its suppliers.

Find me a PM who is completely at the mercy of poor agencies, and I will find you a PM who will soon be looking for another job. No PM worth his or her salt would ever allow the commercial interests of an IT project to be compromised by the paucity of agency suppliers.

[Let-Me-In]

If end clients are that worried about this, thay can insist of a fixed margin as my end-client does. Agencies would hae no incentive to play this game. If end clients aren't insisting on fixed rates, then either they don't see this as a problem, or for some reason I've not thought of, they don't see fixed rates as a solution.

Fixed rates are becoming more common now...which I agree is the way to go.